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New of course it is constitutionally protected
please point out the article or paragraph in the constitution that reserves the right of abortion to the federal government or the states, Unless its a governmentally reserved right it belongs to the people. Im with Ann Coulter who is always howling that abortion isnt in the constitution, if its not it belongs to the people, individually. Now whether abortion is morally right or wrong I stay mute on that issue.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Protection by exclusion
my point being that Alito is being "lawyerly".\r\n\r\nIt isn't specifically mentioned...which gives it a special class (and those rights are remanded to the states...not to the people necessarily...if I recall my constitutional law correctly).
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
\r\n[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New The people.
Amendment 9
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Correct.
An attempt to avoid, "Everything not prohibited is mandatory, everything not mandatory is prohibited".

An attempt to preserve liberty.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Correct. Amendment 9 gives us a right to ...
private ownership of firearms. /me dux. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New and machine gun alito will get it for us :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Was thinking of Ten
Article X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Appears that there is more than one right answer here :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Powers are not rights :-)
The powers not not given to the feds by the constitution/nor prohibited by the feds on the states(think civil rights voting act here) are reserved to the states respectively(state gets first dibs) or the people. Very clearly they are talking governmental powers to regulate in a broad sense as opposed to individual freedoms. This brings into play the constitutional notion of public interest. Is there a determing public interest in abortion? There is a debate to be had for sure but the state of the debate in 1970's in Roe V Wade came down to the determination that until a certain fetal viability it was the individual's decision to choose. Has science since then widened the debate? Im sure it has,
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New I gotcha
Just playing the devil's advocate...you know...defending the right to not know what the meaning of "is" is ;-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Who are you, and what have you done with daBox?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New daBox always needs to know daLaw :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Coming in late
My personal take: it's a property rights issue. Who's property is the body? Mine, or the state's? If it's mine, it's my decision, not the state's.

Last I checked, property rights were enshrined in the US constitution. I'm willing to bet that if you were to start taking parts of the anti-choice crowd's homes away from them on the premise that they have more pressing needs elsewhere, that they'd be ready to howl.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New well why cant you sell a kidney on the open market?
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Monopoly granted to professional medical associations.
And besides which, you can, you just gotta find it first. I recommend Central America, or South(East) Asia, or Eastern Europe as good places to look for an open organ market.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New You mean on Ebay?
[link|http://www.thehawkeye.com/columns/Saar/2002/Saar_0922.html| source ]

(EBay closed it down and selling of human organs is a felony apparently. Interesting thought - it is a Federal or State issue? Could a state overturn it? I digress.)

However, selling of human blood, semen and eggs is commonplace.
New Heard of eminent domain? Wasn't there just a USSC ruling?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Re: Heard of eminent domain? Wasn't there just a USSC rulin
Sure. Let me know when they reinstitute slavery. Until then, one's body is property that cannot be bought or sold.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Not true
The problem with slavery is that the people doing the selling didn't have the permission of those being sold. Right now in Nevada you can legally rent a person. Prohibitions against selling organs, against prostitution, against narcotics, and (some arguments[1]) against abortion come down to the idea that no, we really don't "own" our own bodies, in the sense that we're not allowed to do what we want with them.

To borrow Ben's argument from a recent thread, if there were a clear and easy prohibition against the sale of human organs to be found in the constitution, there wouldn't be so much debate about it. Or at least the debate would be completely different.

So no, the sale of human organs has nothing to do, constitutionally speaking, with slavery. And the constitution doesn't seem to have anything clear to say about whether or not we own our own bodies.


[1] There is also the position -- honestly held by many people -- that the fetus is also a whole person deserving of rights. </tangent>
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Follow-up...
come down to the idea that no, we really don't "own" our own bodies, in the sense that we're not allowed to do what we want with them


There's a LOT of precident for that statement. We're not allowed to inject certain items into our bodies. We're prohibited from taking certain actions (including, in some places, sodomy, suicide).
New Of course???
If it was obvious that the Constitution protects abortion, then why did it take over a century before anti-abortion laws got overturned?

The fact is that the US Constitution nowhere enumerates the powers of the states. A fact that Article X of the Bill of Rights makes abundantly clear. Therefore states have rights to do lots of things that are not covered in the US Constitution. (For a random example, U.S. v. Morrison in 2000 said that Congress does not have the authority to pass a law prohibiting rape. Yet all states have such laws, and there is no legal controversy about this.)

At the time of Roe vs Wade there was no federal law against abortion. But all but a handful of states had state laws against it. The question was whether the US Constitution could be used to overturn those state laws. Therefore the finding can't just be of the form, "The Constitution says nothing about this, so you can't do it!" but has to be, "The Constitution forbids this, so you can't do it!"

This can be seen by reading the actual text of [link|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113|Roe vs Wade]. If there was a direct or obvious argument forbidding abortion, then they would have used it. Instead they had to base it on a right to privacy which is not actually stated in the Constitution, but which is in accord with how several amendments have been interpreted. The district court based this right on the 9th amendment. The Supreme Court primarily on the 14th. (In particular on that bit which says, ...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...)

They did not give a simple, direct argument because there is none to give. It has to be circuitous because you have to find it indirectly in the Constitution.

By contrast if the Supreme Court wanted to forbid abortion, it would be trivial. The 14'th amendment starts off:

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

In Roe vs. Wade the Court found based on historical evidence that person did not mean unborn persons. If the Court found the opposite then abortion would suddenly be comprehensively banned instead of permitted. That is as reasonable a reading of the actual text as the one the Court took. (Given the history behind the text, the Court chose the right reading.)

Likewise if Roe vs Wade had not happened, then it would be within the bounds of how the Commerce Clause is interpreted these days for Congress to pass a law saying that you are not allowed to be in the business of providing abortions. (Of course Roe vs Wade is a more direct precedent, so Congress couldn't get away with this approach. Else they would have tried.)

Finally I'd like to note that if Bush gets his way, a few years from now there will be precedent from the Supreme Court saying that abortion is not, after all, protected by the Constitution.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New took slavery 78 years
and 100 or so for women to be declared people, not chattel. It took 131 years for Indians to be declaired citizens instead of Aliens born in America. Some things take time.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New There is a key difference
Most of those things took time because making them happened required changing the Constitution. And that took time.

I am not familiar which the case that made Indians citizens of the USA. On the face of it, the 14th amendment should have done the trick. However I can see how someone might argue that Indians are technically foreign nations and therefore are not under the jurisdiction of the USA. (Note: I'm not saying that this argument is correct, just that I can see how it could be made.)

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Indians inhabit sovreign nations with US borders
it was an act of congress that made them citizens of the USA as well. I dont know the root cause off of the top of my head but suspect someone needed a boatload of beholdin votes in a remote area to do some skulklduggery. :-)
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New In that case my point stands
There is a difference between creating new law or amendments to the Constitution and figuring out how the Constitution should be read. If it is obvious, then it should take little time to read the Constitution and see that fact.

OTOH we still have the state of West Virginia around even though its creation was extremely dubious constitutionally speaking. (Read, was plainly wrong.) So not all things that are obvious happen right away. (Or ever, I don't think that West Virginia will ever merge with Virginia.)

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Merging Nevada with Calif. was once considered -
hearsay from PBS - on Vegas. Heh, another parallel - as Vegas was recreated as the magnet for every petty to Grand crook, booted outta towns from Wisconsin to Fla (if you can be That corrupt..)

Ditto Iraq - Terrierist Haven created by the class of natives what brung us Las Vegas.

The Constitution - wave it around like a Christian Bible; congratulate selves on a) them hoary principles b) on one's piety and then, c) be Muricans: ignore whatever is inconvenient; cheat, rob the marks blind. And onto

d) We're all Romans now. Spargendo la democrazia (Spreading Democracy)




Love. It.


opty
Expand Edited by Ashton Nov. 15, 2005, 04:13:35 AM EST
New Actually, part of Nevada is California . . .
. . due to a surveying error. Both state governments have decided to ignore the correction for now because it would place certain businesses illegal in California on the wrong side of the border. Correction would be economically disasterous to the local community.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New And, of course,
We all know (or, at least two of us know) that the [link|http://dchieftain.com/news/news10_05142003.html|central part of New Mexico] is not part of New Mexico, and is therefore not part of the union.
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

     Alito against abortion - (andread) - (31)
         WT figures that's a mark in his favor. - (mmoffitt)
         Not that much of a stretch - (bepatient) - (27)
             of course it is constitutionally protected - (boxley) - (26)
                 Protection by exclusion - (bepatient) - (17)
                     The people. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                         Correct. - (imric) - (2)
                             Correct. Amendment 9 gives us a right to ... - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                 and machine gun alito will get it for us :-) -NT - (boxley)
                         Was thinking of Ten - (bepatient) - (4)
                             Powers are not rights :-) - (boxley) - (3)
                                 I gotcha - (bepatient)
                                 Who are you, and what have you done with daBox? -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                                     daBox always needs to know daLaw :-) -NT - (boxley)
                     Coming in late - (jake123) - (7)
                         well why cant you sell a kidney on the open market? -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                             Monopoly granted to professional medical associations. - (jake123)
                             You mean on Ebay? - (Simon_Jester)
                         Heard of eminent domain? Wasn't there just a USSC ruling? -NT - (drewk) - (3)
                             Re: Heard of eminent domain? Wasn't there just a USSC rulin - (jake123) - (2)
                                 Not true - (drewk) - (1)
                                     Follow-up... - (Simon_Jester)
                 Of course??? - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                     took slavery 78 years - (boxley) - (6)
                         There is a key difference - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                             Indians inhabit sovreign nations with US borders - (boxley) - (4)
                                 In that case my point stands - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                     Merging Nevada with Calif. was once considered - - (Ashton) - (2)
                                         Actually, part of Nevada is California . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                             And, of course, - (jb4)
         If Ed Meese was his mentor.. and he gets in - - (Ashton)
         Then he shouldn't have one -NT - (tuberculosis)

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