Bullpucky

I don't HAVE to acknowledge the difference.

You want to take other people's freedom to choose away from them because you don't like their choice, or for some don't think them smart enough to make it, or for some think that its some "evil enterprise" in action, brainwashing our poor children (some of whom are your fellow posters now that they're all growed up, btw)

This is not contradiction. Its not even support for the military. Its a defense of one of the most fundamental aspects of this country.

And some say...well they can choose them...but "we don't have to make it so easy". Again, bullshit. If you are going to give them access to choice 1...then you need to give them equal access to choice 2...WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

Welcome to the US of freakin A, pal.

But because its the military, all eyes here are blind to this. The hatred that you show for the current regime and their policies has you completely blind to the most fundamental aspect of this debate.

Of what is needed to level the playing field. It IS now 2005 and not 1776, before Persuasion became a $Growth$ Industry, staffed by legions of mercenaries with the same level of conscience as your 'strict construction' Scalia argument displays.

Premise:
IF.. in '05 - a 17 yo has not yet figured out that *everyone* with something to Sell is Lying -??- (by omission if not commission) in his/her selective-data presentations:

Perhaps that naif *IS* Just the sort of malleable cannon fodder we shall need more and More-of, to bring US-defined 'Democracy' to Everyone; by all means possible (whether or not practicable.) You appear to be onboard with this view. You, Ayn and and Mr. John Galt.

Initial solution:
The clear next step then, in refining this Open-to-Every-POV process, is:

Each Presenter's table has, (placed a decent audio-space away) a Second table - staffed by any group which wishes to deconstruct the messages from the Main table, employ whatever persuasion techniques as they care to employ / as does the Presenter.

(Headphones, etc. lest duelling audio cancel-out Both sides)

This policy would ensure (at least) two aspects of all 'recruitment' on any *school campus* anywhere:

Conditions:
A) Each student is reminded, properly: to weigh the fact that All Presenters are Salesmen and are minimizing that which you would not Like to find out only.. AFTER it is Too Late.

Presenters are magnifying that which you'd Like to believe -- but in practice, you may have SIGNED-away your chances ever, of Enforcing.
[The reason there should also be a lawyer assigned to Each Child, in order to clarify the often weasel-words in the Promises.] 'Course that would cost some money once pro-bono was exhausted, but WTF - what's a 'child' worth?

B) Each student also is reminded that, No Job! is *without* its negatives; some of these negatives may place your life (or your mental health or both) in far more jeopardy than you can possibly guess - at AGE 17. 'Death' may be less onerous a risk than quadriplegia - for just one example.
(Hell, you can die when your Pinto gets nudged at 20 mph, enroute to the Finest-grade imitation-leather cubicle..)

(And, re a Military career: screen before Recruitment Day - Johnny Got His Gun and preferably, too: The Green Table ballet, for a change of Media - as a small sop for the fact that these are indeed, 'Children' being hustled by Pros.)

(Oh, equivalency for the Corporate ladder to climb: every student gets, if wanted - a tour of the largest local Cubicle Farm, preferably to silently observe ... ... for a period of several hours; a second trip if requested.)

Of course, were this realized - there might be more candidates for Monasteries, but W.T.F.

WITHOUT (A + B): I aver that your 'principle' remains as simplistically Boolean as when proffered and, like the ostrich - its position remains both vulgar and vulnerable.

Ashton,

CIEIO -
The OTHER Side, LLC

Post #233,988 by bepatient 11/14/05 9:44:40 AM Reply	Bullpucky I don't HAVE to acknowledge the difference. You want to take other people's freedom to choose away from them because you don't like their choice, or for some don't think them smart enough to make it, or for some think that its some "evil enterprise" in action, brainwashing our poor children (some of whom are your fellow posters now that they're all growed up, btw) This is not contradiction. Its not even support for the military. Its a defense of one of the most fundamental aspects of this country. And some say...well they can choose them...but "we don't have to make it so easy". Again, bullshit. If you are going to give them access to choice 1...then you need to give them equal access to choice 2...WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. Welcome to the US of freakin A, pal. But because its the military, all eyes here are blind to this. The hatred that you show for the current regime and their policies has you completely blind to the most fundamental aspect of this debate. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #233,990 by pwhysall 11/14/05 9:46:11 AM Reply	No-one's freedom to choose has been taken away. Unless, of course, recruiting offices are being blockaded. Which they aren't. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #233,991 by bepatient 11/14/05 9:49:54 AM Reply	That is in there you are making it harder to choose this by restricting access. maybe over there, Peter...but not here. That dog don't hunt here. Not allowed. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #233,996 by pwhysall 11/14/05 10:10:17 AM Reply	It's harder to choose because it's not the same. The military and the corporations are not equivalent. And access isn't restricted, unless the aforementioned recruiting offices are blockaded, which they're not. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #233,998 by bepatient 11/14/05 10:14:56 AM Reply	But the access to choose by the individual must be the same. They decide if the difference warrants another choice. Not you. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #234,000 by pwhysall 11/14/05 10:21:24 AM Reply	By that logic... ...you might as well invite in the KKK; I'm sure they have a number of PR openings. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #234,002 by bepatient 11/14/05 10:28:37 AM Reply	Chuckle you would have to let them if they wanted. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #234,003 by boxley 11/14/05 10:28:41 AM Reply	as a matter of fact you might have a hard time keeping them out if there is an extra currecular black history studies group. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #233,993 by boxley 11/14/05 9:52:09 AM Reply	either equal access for all or no access for anyone that is how things work here. Socially unacceptable is not a criteria for banning public discourse in America, Yet. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #234,001 by Another Scott 11/14/05 10:21:52 AM Reply	Suppose this was rural Nevada rather than SF. Should brothel owners be allowed to attend high school career day or recruiting events in Nevada? Why or why not? Recall that only a small percentage of those in high school will be of the age of majority. Also recall that brothels are legal in many counties of Nevada. Cheers, Scott. (Who sees a higher standard other than merely "non-discrimination" that needs to be applied in high school career day events.)
Post #234,004 by bepatient 11/14/05 10:30:51 AM Reply	Its a legal occupation In they come. Somehow you think my position would change because of this? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #234,005 by boxley 11/14/05 10:31:12 AM Reply	prostitution is a venerable profession put their booth right next to planned parenthood and the Focus on the Family displays. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #234,116 by ben_tilly 11/14/05 5:13:08 PM Reply	I misread that as... "Prostitution is a venereal profession." Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #234,125 by boxley 11/14/05 6:18:01 PM Reply	intended this time :-} "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #234,127 by Ashton 11/14/05 6:35:48 PM 11/14/05 6:44:26 PM Reply	OK Beep, you've convinced me Of what is needed to level the playing field. It IS now 2005 and not 1776, before Persuasion became a $Growth$ Industry, staffed by legions of mercenaries with the same level of conscience as your 'strict construction' Scalia argument displays. Premise: IF.. in '05 - a 17 yo has not yet figured out that everyone with something to Sell is Lying -??- (by omission if not commission) in his/her selective-data presentations: Perhaps that naif IS Just the sort of malleable cannon fodder we shall need more and More-of, to bring US-defined 'Democracy' to Everyone; by all means possible (whether or not practicable.) You appear to be onboard with this view. You, Ayn and and Mr. John Galt. Initial solution: The clear next step then, in refining this Open-to-Every-POV process, is: Each Presenter's table has, (placed a decent audio-space away) a Second table - staffed by any group which wishes to deconstruct the messages from the Main table, employ whatever persuasion techniques as they care to employ / as does the Presenter. (Headphones, etc. lest duelling audio cancel-out Both sides) This policy would ensure (at least) two aspects of all 'recruitment' on any school campus anywhere: Conditions: A) Each student is reminded, properly: to weigh the fact that All Presenters are Salesmen and are minimizing that which you would not Like to find out only.. AFTER it is Too Late. Presenters are magnifying that which you'd Like to believe -- but in practice, you may have SIGNED-away your chances ever, of Enforcing. [The reason there should also be a lawyer assigned to Each Child, in order to clarify the often weasel-words in the Promises.] 'Course that would cost some money once pro-bono was exhausted, but WTF - what's a 'child' worth? B) Each student also is reminded that, No Job! is without its negatives; some of these negatives may place your life (or your mental health or both) in far more jeopardy than you can possibly guess - at AGE 17. 'Death' may be less onerous a risk than quadriplegia - for just one example. (Hell, you can die when your Pinto gets nudged at 20 mph, enroute to the Finest-grade imitation-leather cubicle..) (And, re a Military career: screen before Recruitment Day - Johnny Got His Gun and preferably, too: The Green Table ballet, for a change of Media - as a small sop for the fact that these are indeed, 'Children' being hustled by Pros.) (Oh, equivalency for the Corporate ladder to climb: every student gets, if wanted - a tour of the largest local Cubicle Farm, preferably to silently observe ... ... for a period of several hours; a second trip if requested.) Of course, were this realized - there might be more candidates for Monasteries, but W.T.F. WITHOUT (A + B): I aver that your 'principle' remains as simplistically Boolean as when proffered and, like the ostrich - its position remains both vulgar and vulnerable. Ashton, CIEIO - The OTHER Side, LLC War is Good (for) Bizness: Invest Your Son/Daughter/Ward - But FIRST: pay us some Conscience money, so when you visit the kid later, in the rehab clinic - you can say, Well, we tried to warn you - remember? tysop Edited by Ashton Nov. 14, 2005, 06:44:26 PM EST Expand All History
Post #234,141 by bepatient 11/14/05 7:28:37 PM 11/14/05 7:30:56 PM Reply	WDYHASM? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Nov. 14, 2005, 07:30:29 PM EST Edited by bepatient Nov. 14, 2005, 07:30:56 PM EST Expand All History
Post #234,144 by Ashton 11/14/05 7:44:37 PM Reply	(Because it's Broken?)
Post #234,143 by Andrew Grygus 11/14/05 7:44:33 PM Reply	Judging by infected computers . . . . . today's kids don't develop a suspicion of the word "free" until they're about 24 years old. I suspect their suspicion of other sales pitches is similarly weak until that age. Naturally, our government is anxious to recruit the required quota of canon fodder from the 18 to 23 year olds, because beyond that it's "game over". I'm sure they'd recruit them at 12 years if they could - boy could they make hay then! [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]

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