See above.

11/13/05 12:20:51 PM

You continue to hunt for things

that change the fundamental argument.

It is THEIR CHOICE you are taking away because you don't like that they are choosing. All these differences make it BAD FOR THEM so you shouldn't LET THEM do it.

You are being sucked into the forest and missing the tree.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,890

11/13/05 12:44:21 PM

No-one's taking any choices away, though.

The recruiting office is still there, where it always was.

Post #233,928

11/13/05 6:50:37 PM

Without equal access

because someone knows better than you what choices you should be allowed to make.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,971

11/14/05 1:32:34 AM

Yes, adults do know better than children.

Post #233,894

by hnick

11/13/05 1:01:52 PM

Ok, how about this?

The college students can do what they want. They can be recruited for anything and do as they please. They've been trying to run their own lives for a while now, so let them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

High school students may still legitimately be protected from predators. Military recruiters eminently qualify as predators, particularly if they are way behind in their quotas. The kids still have to sign up for selective service when they hit 18; that's law. The military doesn't need any more information than that. We should be able to protect our young, even when they approach 18 and you want to turn their air off. If they're 18 and want to enlist, it's their choice. Nothing to be done about it. But we don't have to give predators extra information to hook them.

Post #233,907

11/13/05 1:32:44 PM

But but but

Think of the poor recruiters!!!

Post #233,908

by hnick

11/13/05 1:38:35 PM

Their problem. TS as it were...

Post #233,909

11/13/05 2:07:05 PM

I guess I needed the sign

Post #233,910

by hnick

11/13/05 2:41:25 PM

Me too

Post #233,926

11/13/05 6:49:32 PM

I'm cool with that.

The "extra information" part can go away. In fact, I would support that it does.

Not allowing recruiters access is my problem, especially of other organizations are allowed to recruit.

Thats a "groupthink" issue and I have a problem with that. Its making choices for others because you know better than they do what is good for them. I'm disappointed in several here for not seeing this and coming to the table with "but this is different" and the tried and true "but its for the cheeldrun".

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,930

11/13/05 6:53:01 PM

It was impossible to tease that out though

from you, since you refuse to engage.

At least to me.

That was one of my specific points that made me unhappy.

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=233870|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=233870]

Post #233,931

11/13/05 6:57:56 PM

I engaged

on the point that I was making. Since the info seemed to have more legs, I addressed it here.

The info piece was not central nor important to my point.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,932

11/13/05 7:01:46 PM

Sorry

It was to mine.
I should have been clearer.

Post #233,933

11/13/05 7:05:56 PM

No reason for that

If I was pissed, I know where you live :-)

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,934

11/13/05 7:06:05 PM

11/13/05 7:06:29 PM

dupe

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Edited by bepatient Nov. 13, 2005, 07:06:29 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #233,977

by Ashton

11/14/05 5:34:33 AM

If there's any 'groupthink' here, Mr. Legal Theoretician

(Too many hours memorizing Atlas Shrugged?)

- it's in your refusal to acknowledge that the Military is *NOT* a business, that their techniques include baldfaced, premeditated harassment; Psych Warfare. Recruits, barely ex-children thus utterly inexperienced with even civilian law: enter a surreal NON-civilian Code of Military Justice from Day 1.
(And the rest of Peter's, Imric's clear and relevant points - which you completely ignored.)

Remember? Recruiters commence this Psychological pre-Warfare while these are still CHILDREN.
(Officially! in that arbitrary but Scriptured legal definition of Age of Adulthood - and anyone sane notices that THAT number necessarily ignores the considerable variation in individual 'maturity': both ways.)

But WTF, BeeP - you aren't the only one around who will Stay The Course, No Matter Where that course actually Led. Why, I'd bet you'd reach any conclusion - based on nothing but a few things you deem to be some sort of legal factoid / screw all context. (Some might call that, a simple-minded obsession with the pseudo-science of The Law; you know: "computers can do the Boolean on 'Statutes' and no messy human or humane Live People need attend / spoil the mathematical Efficiency.")

But I call your obdurate repetition of the most simplistic aspect of this proposition: purest Digital Think.
Your faith clearly is in Formulas. (Legal 'Scripture'?)

You're not even 'arguing' - just contradicting. Any deeper, more nuanced examination of this Issue appears beyond your chosen shallow mechanistic mindset. (Speaking of mantras..)

Shit, might's well just Google: "Should I let my kid be exposed to this icky ~~sex edjaKayshun~~ Psyche Manipulation or Not?" Google says: _____.

Pshaw. Wait'll they start bringing in some of that 'missing' Iraqi plastic-wrapped stacks of $100s and dangling them in front of 17 yos... Oh wait -

Post #233,984

by boxley

11/14/05 9:20:04 AM

conclusions should be made on rationale not gut think

we are a nation of laws and any "law" created by an elected assembly needs to fit within the framework of our body of laws. Going "ook bad" is fine but not legally defensible. Going "ook bad because our body of laws do not allow this" actually gets the argument further along.
thanx,
bill

"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #233,988

11/14/05 9:44:40 AM

Bullpucky

I don't HAVE to acknowledge the difference.

You want to take other people's freedom to choose away from them because you don't like their choice, or for some don't think them smart enough to make it, or for some think that its some "evil enterprise" in action, brainwashing our poor children (some of whom are your fellow posters now that they're all growed up, btw)

This is not contradiction. Its not even support for the military. Its a defense of one of the most fundamental aspects of this country.

And some say...well they can choose them...but "we don't have to make it so easy". Again, bullshit. If you are going to give them access to choice 1...then you need to give them equal access to choice 2...WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

Welcome to the US of freakin A, pal.

But because its the military, all eyes here are blind to this. The hatred that you show for the current regime and their policies has you completely blind to the most fundamental aspect of this debate.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,990

11/14/05 9:46:11 AM

No-one's freedom to choose has been taken away.

Unless, of course, recruiting offices are being blockaded.

Which they aren't.

Post #233,991

11/14/05 9:49:54 AM

That is in there

you are making it harder to choose this by restricting access.

maybe over there, Peter...but not here. That dog don't hunt here. Not allowed.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #233,996

11/14/05 10:10:17 AM

It's harder to choose because it's not the same.

The military and the corporations are not equivalent.

And access isn't restricted, unless the aforementioned recruiting offices are blockaded, which they're not.

Post #233,998

11/14/05 10:14:56 AM

But the access to choose

by the individual must be the same.

They decide if the difference warrants another choice. Not you.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #234,000

11/14/05 10:21:24 AM

By that logic...

...you might as well invite in the KKK; I'm sure they have a number of PR openings.

Post #234,002

11/14/05 10:28:37 AM

Chuckle

you would have to let them if they wanted.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #234,003

by boxley

11/14/05 10:28:41 AM

as a matter of fact you might have a hard time keeping them

out if there is an extra currecular black history studies group.
thanx,
bill

Post #233,993

by boxley

11/14/05 9:52:09 AM

either equal access for all or no access for anyone

that is how things work here. Socially unacceptable is not a criteria for banning public discourse in America, Yet.
thanx,
bill

Post #234,001

by Another Scott

11/14/05 10:21:52 AM

Suppose this was rural Nevada rather than SF.

Should brothel owners be allowed to attend high school career day or recruiting events in Nevada? Why or why not?

Recall that only a small percentage of those in high school will be of the age of majority. Also recall that brothels are legal in many counties of Nevada.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who sees a higher standard other than merely "non-discrimination" that needs to be applied in high school career day events.)

Post #234,004

11/14/05 10:30:51 AM

Its a legal occupation

In they come.

Somehow you think my position would change because of this?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #234,005

by boxley

11/14/05 10:31:12 AM

prostitution is a venerable profession

put their booth right next to planned parenthood and the Focus on the Family displays.
thanx,
bill

Post #234,116

by ben_tilly

11/14/05 5:13:08 PM

I misread that as...

"Prostitution is a venereal profession."

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #234,125

by boxley

11/14/05 6:18:01 PM

intended this time :-}

Post #234,127

by Ashton

11/14/05 6:35:48 PM

11/14/05 6:44:26 PM

OK Beep, you've convinced me

Of what is needed to level the playing field. It IS now 2005 and not 1776, before Persuasion became a $Growth$ Industry, staffed by legions of mercenaries with the same level of conscience as your 'strict construction' Scalia argument displays.

Premise:
IF.. in '05 - a 17 yo has not yet figured out that *everyone* with something to Sell is Lying -??- (by omission if not commission) in his/her selective-data presentations:

Perhaps that naif *IS* Just the sort of malleable cannon fodder we shall need more and More-of, to bring US-defined 'Democracy' to Everyone; by all means possible (whether or not practicable.) You appear to be onboard with this view. You, Ayn and and Mr. John Galt.

Initial solution:
The clear next step then, in refining this Open-to-Every-POV process, is:

Each Presenter's table has, (placed a decent audio-space away) a Second table - staffed by any group which wishes to deconstruct the messages from the Main table, employ whatever persuasion techniques as they care to employ / as does the Presenter.

(Headphones, etc. lest duelling audio cancel-out Both sides)

This policy would ensure (at least) two aspects of all 'recruitment' on any *school campus* anywhere:

Conditions:
A) Each student is reminded, properly: to weigh the fact that All Presenters are Salesmen and are minimizing that which you would not Like to find out only.. AFTER it is Too Late.

Presenters are magnifying that which you'd Like to believe -- but in practice, you may have SIGNED-away your chances ever, of Enforcing.
[The reason there should also be a lawyer assigned to Each Child, in order to clarify the often weasel-words in the Promises.] 'Course that would cost some money once pro-bono was exhausted, but WTF - what's a 'child' worth?

B) Each student also is reminded that, No Job! is *without* its negatives; some of these negatives may place your life (or your mental health or both) in far more jeopardy than you can possibly guess - at AGE 17. 'Death' may be less onerous a risk than quadriplegia - for just one example.
(Hell, you can die when your Pinto gets nudged at 20 mph, enroute to the Finest-grade imitation-leather cubicle..)

(And, re a Military career: screen before Recruitment Day - Johnny Got His Gun and preferably, too: The Green Table ballet, for a change of Media - as a small sop for the fact that these are indeed, 'Children' being hustled by Pros.)

(Oh, equivalency for the Corporate ladder to climb: every student gets, if wanted - a tour of the largest local Cubicle Farm, preferably to silently observe ... ... for a period of several hours; a second trip if requested.)

Of course, were this realized - there might be more candidates for Monasteries, but W.T.F.

WITHOUT (A + B): I aver that your 'principle' remains as simplistically Boolean as when proffered and, like the ostrich - its position remains both vulgar and vulnerable.

Ashton,

CIEIO -
The OTHER Side, LLC

War is Good (for) Bizness: Invest Your Son/Daughter/Ward -
But FIRST: pay us some Conscience money, so when you visit the kid later, in the rehab clinic - you can say, Well, we tried to warn you - remember?

tysop

Edited by Ashton Nov. 14, 2005, 06:44:26 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #234,141