Post #233,869
11/13/05 10:43:10 AM
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Sophistry ?
The mantra chanted is "We know better".
How charitably presumptuous of you.
And in this case you are oh so charitable with your intellect. We must "save them from themselves".
And with healthcare, we are "bad" because we don't follow the majority...but here we have no mandatory service...and this, of course is a good thing...made better by our "elite minds" who, in order to protect "the cheeldrun", feel that those evil, mind warping recruiters will fool our young into a life of carnage.
Ignoring the fact that 1) not eveyone in service gets to shoot people and 2) they don't need your help to decide...its NOT YOUR JOB.
If they are allowed to be wooed by McDonalds at a job fare (with promises of benefits, promotion, money, education) then they should be, nay must be allowed to hear the same information from another potential employer...be it army, navy, air force or Marine.
Thats the joy of freedom boys.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,871
11/13/05 10:52:04 AM
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They can quit McDonalds
Why do you refuse to acknowledge this difference?
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Post #233,884
11/13/05 11:58:47 AM
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Because it makes no difference
Its THEIR DECISION TO MAKE. You want to make it for them.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,915
11/13/05 4:55:30 PM
11/13/05 4:55:51 PM
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no difference
no one is banning anyone from joining the armed forces
only putting a limit on how the military goes about
getting its volunteers
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
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Edited by andread
Nov. 13, 2005, 04:55:51 PM EST
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Post #233,924
11/13/05 6:44:58 PM
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More of a limit
than on any other organization.
And they are doing it because they don't LIKE it.
My humble apologies for being OFFENDED by that.
And I would recommend to my children that they DON'T enlist.
I am not being pro-military in this defense...but I'm sure most think that I am.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,942
11/13/05 8:14:53 PM
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I think some people
see the point that you're making regarding the military. But you brushed away the other two points (that the military already had unequal access from "No Child Left Behind" and the removal of choice a la legal drinking ages) so dismissively (and apparently without validating those points) that your issue appeared to be solely military access.
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Post #233,873
11/13/05 11:26:49 AM
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Companies are not the same as the armed forces
That's my point. There's a world of difference between being a junior greasemonkey at McDonald's and being a junior greasemonkey in the army in Iraq.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #233,883
11/13/05 11:57:00 AM
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Other employers
cannot fundamentally alter the rights they have. The armed services can. Normal employers don't have putting employees in combat situations as a reason for being. Normal employers can't force extended service, and don't have their own laws, courts and prisons.
Employer<>Armed services. Just like Business<>Government. They aren't the same, and shouldn't be the same.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #233,885
11/13/05 11:59:22 AM
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See above.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,886
11/13/05 12:04:37 PM
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No.
The Army is not a job. any more than government is business. It's not something that can be quit. The fact that you may permit businesses to recruit does NOT mean that you must let all organisations everywhere recruit.
You are completely wrong here, my friend.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #233,887
11/13/05 12:20:51 PM
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You continue to hunt for things
that change the fundamental argument.
It is THEIR CHOICE you are taking away because you don't like that they are choosing. All these differences make it BAD FOR THEM so you shouldn't LET THEM do it.
You are being sucked into the forest and missing the tree.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,890
11/13/05 12:44:21 PM
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No-one's taking any choices away, though.
The recruiting office is still there, where it always was.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #233,928
11/13/05 6:50:37 PM
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Without equal access
because someone knows better than you what choices you should be allowed to make.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,971
11/14/05 1:32:34 AM
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Yes, adults do know better than children.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #233,894
11/13/05 1:01:52 PM
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Ok, how about this?
The college students can do what they want. They can be recruited for anything and do as they please. They've been trying to run their own lives for a while now, so let them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
High school students may still legitimately be protected from predators. Military recruiters eminently qualify as predators, particularly if they are way behind in their quotas. The kids still have to sign up for selective service when they hit 18; that's law. The military doesn't need any more information than that. We should be able to protect our young, even when they approach 18 and you want to turn their air off. If they're 18 and want to enlist, it's their choice. Nothing to be done about it. But we don't have to give predators extra information to hook them.
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Post #233,907
11/13/05 1:32:44 PM
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But but but
Think of the poor recruiters!!!
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Post #233,908
11/13/05 1:38:35 PM
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Their problem. TS as it were...
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Post #233,909
11/13/05 2:07:05 PM
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I guess I needed the sign
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Post #233,910
11/13/05 2:41:25 PM
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Me too
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Post #233,926
11/13/05 6:49:32 PM
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I'm cool with that.
The "extra information" part can go away. In fact, I would support that it does.
Not allowing recruiters access is my problem, especially of other organizations are allowed to recruit.
Thats a "groupthink" issue and I have a problem with that. Its making choices for others because you know better than they do what is good for them. I'm disappointed in several here for not seeing this and coming to the table with "but this is different" and the tried and true "but its for the cheeldrun".
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,930
11/13/05 6:53:01 PM
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It was impossible to tease that out though
from you, since you refuse to engage.
At least to me.
That was one of my specific points that made me unhappy.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=233870|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=233870]
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Post #233,931
11/13/05 6:57:56 PM
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I engaged
on the point that I was making. Since the info seemed to have more legs, I addressed it here.
The info piece was not central nor important to my point.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,932
11/13/05 7:01:46 PM
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Sorry
It was to mine.
I should have been clearer.
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Post #233,933
11/13/05 7:05:56 PM
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No reason for that
If I was pissed, I know where you live :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,934
11/13/05 7:06:05 PM
11/13/05 7:06:29 PM
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dupe
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Nov. 13, 2005, 07:06:29 PM EST
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Post #233,977
11/14/05 5:34:33 AM
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If there's any 'groupthink' here, Mr. Legal Theoretician
(Too many hours memorizing Atlas Shrugged?)
- it's in your refusal to acknowledge that the Military is *NOT* a business, that their techniques include baldfaced, premeditated harassment; Psych Warfare. Recruits, barely ex-children thus utterly inexperienced with even civilian law: enter a surreal NON-civilian Code of Military Justice from Day 1.
(And the rest of Peter's, Imric's clear and relevant points - which you completely ignored.)
Remember? Recruiters commence this Psychological pre-Warfare while these are still CHILDREN.
(Officially! in that arbitrary but Scriptured legal definition of Age of Adulthood - and anyone sane notices that THAT number necessarily ignores the considerable variation in individual 'maturity': both ways.)
But WTF, BeeP - you aren't the only one around who will Stay The Course, No Matter Where that course actually Led. Why, I'd bet you'd reach any conclusion - based on nothing but a few things you deem to be some sort of legal factoid / screw all context. (Some might call that, a simple-minded obsession with the pseudo-science of The Law; you know: "computers can do the Boolean on 'Statutes' and no messy human or humane Live People need attend / spoil the mathematical Efficiency.")
But I call your obdurate repetition of the most simplistic aspect of this proposition: purest Digital Think.
Your faith clearly is in Formulas. (Legal 'Scripture'?)
You're not even 'arguing' - just contradicting. Any deeper, more nuanced examination of this Issue appears beyond your chosen shallow mechanistic mindset. (Speaking of mantras..)
Shit, might's well just Google: "Should I let my kid be exposed to this icky sex edjaKayshun Psyche Manipulation or Not?" Google says: _____.
Pshaw. Wait'll they start bringing in some of that 'missing' Iraqi plastic-wrapped stacks of $100s and dangling them in front of 17 yos... Oh wait -
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Post #233,984
11/14/05 9:20:04 AM
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conclusions should be made on rationale not gut think
we are a nation of laws and any "law" created by an elected assembly needs to fit within the framework of our body of laws. Going "ook bad" is fine but not legally defensible. Going "ook bad because our body of laws do not allow this" actually gets the argument further along.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #233,988
11/14/05 9:44:40 AM
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Bullpucky
I don't HAVE to acknowledge the difference.
You want to take other people's freedom to choose away from them because you don't like their choice, or for some don't think them smart enough to make it, or for some think that its some "evil enterprise" in action, brainwashing our poor children (some of whom are your fellow posters now that they're all growed up, btw)
This is not contradiction. Its not even support for the military. Its a defense of one of the most fundamental aspects of this country.
And some say...well they can choose them...but "we don't have to make it so easy". Again, bullshit. If you are going to give them access to choice 1...then you need to give them equal access to choice 2...WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.
Welcome to the US of freakin A, pal.
But because its the military, all eyes here are blind to this. The hatred that you show for the current regime and their policies has you completely blind to the most fundamental aspect of this debate.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,990
11/14/05 9:46:11 AM
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No-one's freedom to choose has been taken away.
Unless, of course, recruiting offices are being blockaded.
Which they aren't.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #233,991
11/14/05 9:49:54 AM
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That is in there
you are making it harder to choose this by restricting access.
maybe over there, Peter...but not here. That dog don't hunt here. Not allowed.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #233,996
11/14/05 10:10:17 AM
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It's harder to choose because it's not the same.
The military and the corporations are not equivalent.
And access isn't restricted, unless the aforementioned recruiting offices are blockaded, which they're not.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #233,998
11/14/05 10:14:56 AM
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But the access to choose
by the individual must be the same.
They decide if the difference warrants another choice. Not you.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #234,000
11/14/05 10:21:24 AM
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By that logic...
...you might as well invite in the KKK; I'm sure they have a number of PR openings.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #234,002
11/14/05 10:28:37 AM
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Chuckle
you would have to let them if they wanted.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #234,003
11/14/05 10:28:41 AM
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as a matter of fact you might have a hard time keeping them
out if there is an extra currecular black history studies group.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #233,993
11/14/05 9:52:09 AM
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either equal access for all or no access for anyone
that is how things work here. Socially unacceptable is not a criteria for banning public discourse in America, Yet.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #234,001
11/14/05 10:21:52 AM
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Suppose this was rural Nevada rather than SF.
Should brothel owners be allowed to attend high school career day or recruiting events in Nevada? Why or why not?
Recall that only a small percentage of those in high school will be of the age of majority. Also recall that brothels are legal in many counties of Nevada.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who sees a higher standard other than merely "non-discrimination" that needs to be applied in high school career day events.)
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Post #234,004
11/14/05 10:30:51 AM
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Its a legal occupation
In they come.
Somehow you think my position would change because of this?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #234,005
11/14/05 10:31:12 AM
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prostitution is a venerable profession
put their booth right next to planned parenthood and the Focus on the Family displays.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #234,116
11/14/05 5:13:08 PM
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I misread that as...
"Prostitution is a venereal profession."
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #234,125
11/14/05 6:18:01 PM
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intended this time :-}
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #234,127
11/14/05 6:35:48 PM
11/14/05 6:44:26 PM
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OK Beep, you've convinced me
Of what is needed to level the playing field. It IS now 2005 and not 1776, before Persuasion became a $Growth$ Industry, staffed by legions of mercenaries with the same level of conscience as your 'strict construction' Scalia argument displays.
Premise:
IF.. in '05 - a 17 yo has not yet figured out that *everyone* with something to Sell is Lying -??- (by omission if not commission) in his/her selective-data presentations:
Perhaps that naif *IS* Just the sort of malleable cannon fodder we shall need more and More-of, to bring US-defined 'Democracy' to Everyone; by all means possible (whether or not practicable.) You appear to be onboard with this view. You, Ayn and and Mr. John Galt.
Initial solution:
The clear next step then, in refining this Open-to-Every-POV process, is:
Each Presenter's table has, (placed a decent audio-space away) a Second table - staffed by any group which wishes to deconstruct the messages from the Main table, employ whatever persuasion techniques as they care to employ / as does the Presenter.
(Headphones, etc. lest duelling audio cancel-out Both sides)
This policy would ensure (at least) two aspects of all 'recruitment' on any *school campus* anywhere:
Conditions:
A) Each student is reminded, properly: to weigh the fact that All Presenters are Salesmen and are minimizing that which you would not Like to find out only.. AFTER it is Too Late.
Presenters are magnifying that which you'd Like to believe -- but in practice, you may have SIGNED-away your chances ever, of Enforcing.
[The reason there should also be a lawyer assigned to Each Child, in order to clarify the often weasel-words in the Promises.] 'Course that would cost some money once pro-bono was exhausted, but WTF - what's a 'child' worth?
B) Each student also is reminded that, No Job! is *without* its negatives; some of these negatives may place your life (or your mental health or both) in far more jeopardy than you can possibly guess - at AGE 17. 'Death' may be less onerous a risk than quadriplegia - for just one example.
(Hell, you can die when your Pinto gets nudged at 20 mph, enroute to the Finest-grade imitation-leather cubicle..)
(And, re a Military career: screen before Recruitment Day - Johnny Got His Gun and preferably, too: The Green Table ballet, for a change of Media - as a small sop for the fact that these are indeed, 'Children' being hustled by Pros.)
(Oh, equivalency for the Corporate ladder to climb: every student gets, if wanted - a tour of the largest local Cubicle Farm, preferably to silently observe ... ... for a period of several hours; a second trip if requested.)
Of course, were this realized - there might be more candidates for Monasteries, but W.T.F.
WITHOUT (A + B): I aver that your 'principle' remains as simplistically Boolean as when proffered and, like the ostrich - its position remains both vulgar and vulnerable.
Ashton,
CIEIO -
The OTHER Side, LLC
War is Good (for) Bizness: Invest Your Son/Daughter/Ward -
But FIRST: pay us some Conscience money, so when you visit the kid later, in the rehab clinic - you can say, Well, we tried to warn you - remember?
tysop
Edited by Ashton
Nov. 14, 2005, 06:44:26 PM EST
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Post #234,141
11/14/05 7:28:37 PM
11/14/05 7:30:56 PM
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WDYHASM?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Nov. 14, 2005, 07:30:29 PM EST
Edited by bepatient
Nov. 14, 2005, 07:30:56 PM EST
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Post #234,144
11/14/05 7:44:37 PM
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(Because it's Broken?)
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Post #234,143
11/14/05 7:44:33 PM
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Judging by infected computers . . .
. . today's kids don't develop a suspicion of the word "free" until they're about 24 years old. I suspect their suspicion of other sales pitches is similarly weak until that age.
Naturally, our government is anxious to recruit the required quota of canon fodder from the 18 to 23 year olds, because beyond that it's "game over". I'm sure they'd recruit them at 12 years if they could - boy could they make hay then!
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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