Post #229,314
10/12/05 1:38:06 PM
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Don't forget the "not by deeds" thing
I'm not sure of the exact phrasing, or exactly where it comes from, but: "Salvation comes not through works, but through grace/faith." Basically saying that you don't get to heaven by being a good person; no one can be good enough to deserve it. You have to have faith ... in the right thing, of course.
The point of this adminition is that an atheist who lives a "good" life still won't make it into heaven. You still have to have faith. "You have to believe for that to work."[1] I've always suspected that in practice what it meant was that people would tell themselves, "It doesn't matter what I do anyway, so long as I confess it afterwards." This was, after all, the idea behind dispensations: buy forgiveness in advance for what you're about to do.
[1] Bonus "sad person" points for whoever names that movie reference without googling.
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Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #229,316
10/12/05 1:48:54 PM
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Bah! I googled anyway. :-P
Here is the Catholic take on good works:
[link|http://www.justforcatholics.org/salvation_works.htm|http://www.justforca...lvation_works.htm]
AFA atheists are concerned, I have known an atheist or two who are better people than a lot of the "Christians" that I know. My experience is that these so-called "Godless" people are more selfless, more moral, more ethical and downright decent folk.
I guess the only difference is that they don't yell, "Oh God" when climaxing.
:-D
Peace,
Bad Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #229,362
10/12/05 5:05:20 PM
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I didn't
That is part of the wrong question. It is relevant to the "Atheists are going to Hell!" debate, not the, "Are atheists nice people?" debate.
The former question is hard to collect any solid information on. The latter is much easier to, but a lot of people don't like what the collectable information seems to say. (And it is very easy to debate what the collectable information really means - which is what we're doing here.)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,368
10/12/05 5:19:16 PM
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No, it goes to why they do what they do
"They" being some Christians. If they believe it's strictly about grace, and not about works, then it doesn't matter what their works are.
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Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #229,369
10/12/05 5:19:59 PM
10/12/05 5:20:37 PM
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Point. "Jesus died for your sins, make it worth his while!"
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Edited by ben_tilly
Oct. 12, 2005, 05:20:37 PM EDT
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Post #229,372
10/12/05 5:58:46 PM
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I think it's in Ephesians.
In other words, after Jesus's time. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=31|Ephesians 2]: 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions\ufffdit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith\ufffdand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God\ufffd 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. In that translation, the word "grace" only appears once in Luke and 3 times in John, (not at all in Matthew and Mark). I don't think "grace" was a concept that meant much to Jesus, myself. I think it's a concept that gained later importance as the disciples wandered around. Since one of the things that Jesus did was [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&version=31|heal on the Sabbath], I think that works were important to him. FWIW. YMMV. IANATheologian. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #229,381
10/12/05 6:41:56 PM
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But it's a common word -
in the areas visited (allegedly.. ostensibly..) during JC's wandering years.
Further, with the Guru's Grace persists as a phrase today -- despite most (not-Money-Gurus') repeated efforts to reveal that this is a misunderstanding of (say) "what it is that you Are" - as well as an indication that your metaphysical grokking is nowhere near-to "Fullness."
Understandable that Christianity, being as it is, an eclectic synthesis of many other symbolic 'events' and ideas - would continue an idea which is deemed not-quite-bogus, but ? muddies/limits comprehension.
Bible.. grist for an endless NY Times Crossword of the history of thoughts on the evanescent.
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