No true Scotsman again?

Post #229,306 by ben_tilly 10/12/05 1:10:58 PM Reply	No true Scotsman again? I agree that :Christian" covers a broad swathe of people. But it looks to me like your argument comes down to, "If devout Christians are not supposed to have bad results, then the sects of Christians that are having bad results must not really be devout." Now you may not really be doing that. But that is how it looks to me. First of all that doesn't match my personal experience. The people that I've known who are towards the conservative end of Christianity tend to be (some hypocritical leaders notwithstanding) plenty sincere. Furthermore you aren't addressing the comparatively good results achieved by (obviously non-devout) atheists. Clearly something matters more here than just being devout. My theory, massively oversimplified, is that Christianity's underlying message correlates with bad results. Note that I say correlates. I'm not saying that it causes them. (Though in some cases it might.) But there is a positive correlation. One example is that the message that Jesus redeems our sins has definite appeal for people who are painfully aware of sins that need redeeming. (And the availability of easy "forgiveness" keeps them from really changing.) Yes, I know that that's not how that is supposed to be read. But it is how some people are going to read it. The amount that is cause and the amount that is effect is debateable. But the correlation is obvious. Another example along the cause line is that Biblical standards for how a husband and wife are to relate are going to work better for some than others. This leads to unhappiness in many marriages. If laws and cultural norms permit (they didn't used to, they tend to now), this leads to divorce. The knowledge on the part of the spouse who was left that, "It wasn't my fault, I did everything according to the Good Book!" keeps him or her (judging from statistics, probably him) from having to examine or address, before, during, or after, the causes of the unhappiness. By contrast we non-religious people have no shield between our actions and a feeling of personal responsibility for our actions. Obviously not in all cases, but in enough to be statistically significant, that feeling of personal accountability leads to better results. Which leads to exactly the opposite result of what many religious people believe will happen. They believe that, deprived of the fear of God, there will be nothing to stop atheists from becoming hedonistic criminals. But as both my personal experience and many statistics indicate, atheists don't actually do that. Quite the opposite. By many customary standards of morality, such as divorce and crime, atheists are on average better people than Christians, and atheistic countries are on average better countries than Christian ones! (By other standards, of course, atheists are worse. We are, for instance, more likely to think that abortion and homosexuality are OK, and are not exactly regular Church-goers...) Yes. I know that I just offended a lot of you. But go look at the statistics instead of trying to explain them away, and see what you think! Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #229,314 by drewk 10/12/05 1:38:06 PM Reply	Don't forget the "not by deeds" thing I'm not sure of the exact phrasing, or exactly where it comes from, but: "Salvation comes not through works, but through grace/faith." Basically saying that you don't get to heaven by being a good person; no one can be good enough to deserve it. You have to have faith ... in the right thing, of course. The point of this adminition is that an atheist who lives a "good" life still won't make it into heaven. You still have to have faith. "You have to believe for that to work."[1] I've always suspected that in practice what it meant was that people would tell themselves, "It doesn't matter what I do anyway, so long as I confess it afterwards." This was, after all, the idea behind dispensations: buy forgiveness in advance for what you're about to do. [1] Bonus "sad person" points for whoever names that movie reference without googling. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #229,316 by imqwerky 10/12/05 1:48:54 PM Reply	Bah! I googled anyway. :-P Here is the Catholic take on good works: [link\|http://www.justforcatholics.org/salvation_works.htm\|http://www.justforca...lvation_works.htm] AFA atheists are concerned, I have known an atheist or two who are better people than a lot of the "Christians" that I know. My experience is that these so-called "Godless" people are more selfless, more moral, more ethical and downright decent folk. I guess the only difference is that they don't yell, "Oh God" when climaxing. :-D Peace, Bad Amy Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
Post #229,362 by ben_tilly 10/12/05 5:05:20 PM Reply	I didn't That is part of the wrong question. It is relevant to the "Atheists are going to Hell!" debate, not the, "Are atheists nice people?" debate. The former question is hard to collect any solid information on. The latter is much easier to, but a lot of people don't like what the collectable information seems to say. (And it is very easy to debate what the collectable information really means - which is what we're doing here.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #229,368 by drewk 10/12/05 5:19:16 PM Reply	No, it goes to why they do what they do "They" being some Christians. If they believe it's strictly about grace, and not about works, then it doesn't matter what their works are. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #229,369 by ben_tilly 10/12/05 5:19:59 PM 10/12/05 5:20:37 PM Reply	Point. "Jesus died for your sins, make it worth his while!" I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother) Edited by ben_tilly Oct. 12, 2005, 05:20:37 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #229,372 by Another Scott 10/12/05 5:58:46 PM Reply	I think it's in Ephesians. In other words, after Jesus's time. [link\|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=31\|Ephesians 2]: 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions\ufffdit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith\ufffdand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God\ufffd 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. In that translation, the word "grace" only appears once in Luke and 3 times in John, (not at all in Matthew and Mark). I don't think "grace" was a concept that meant much to Jesus, myself. I think it's a concept that gained later importance as the disciples wandered around. Since one of the things that Jesus did was [link\|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&version=31\|heal on the Sabbath], I think that works were important to him. FWIW. YMMV. IANATheologian. Cheers, Scott.
Post #229,381 by Ashton 10/12/05 6:41:56 PM Reply	But it's a common word - in the areas visited (allegedly.. ostensibly..) during JC's wandering years. Further, with the Guru's Grace persists as a phrase today -- despite most (not-Money-Gurus') repeated efforts to reveal that this is a misunderstanding of (say) "what it is that you Are" - as well as an indication that your metaphysical grokking is nowhere near-to "Fullness." Understandable that Christianity, being as it is, an eclectic synthesis of many other symbolic 'events' and ideas - would continue an idea which is deemed not-quite-bogus, but ? muddies/limits comprehension. Bible.. grist for an endless NY Times Crossword of the history of thoughts on the evanescent.
Post #229,326 by boxley 10/12/05 2:34:27 PM Reply	I am playing my little violin for you I think you are personifying your statistics now, The knowledge on the part of the spouse who was left that, "It wasn't my fault, I did everything according to the Good Book!" keeps him or her (judging from statistics, probably him) from having to examine or address, before, during, or after, the causes of the unhappiness. you statistical pool of one? Who you had a verbal shooting match with around here? You now equate your personal experience to "all christians are like that". pull the other one. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #229,340 by Ashton 10/12/05 3:48:40 PM Reply	-3 for even hinting about . . . a Statistical 'Proof' of [anything having to do with homo-sap good/badness] We have juries for that purpose. Not math (except in the shifty rheumy eyes of Neoconboys, and within the accountant-grade microcephaly of Economists.) Character is about what you Are. Reputation is ~ how well you've concealed the odious parts. Judgment - is an effort to reconcile the two. After an accusation. Preferably before an execution. One Hitler is a sufficient sample to despise a Hitler - you don't need a graph, you (pseudo-nit)-picking mangler of Sentience! As to how many (claimed-to-be)-Christians-experienced is [enough to see a pattern]? How's a Lifetime's worth? and amidst a total of 123,678 last count.. Need I 123,679? (Work for Redmond a lot, measuring Windows satisfiction , do you..) :-\ufffd
Post #229,342 by boxley 10/12/05 4:00:58 PM Reply	I didnt bring statistics in here, look ..I.. that way :-) "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #229,363 by ben_tilly 10/12/05 5:11:00 PM Reply	Read, in context, please I was explicitly saying that that part was my personal theory. I cannot substantiate it, and I believe that it only applies for a fraction of religious people. A statistically significant fraction, perhaps, but still only a fraction. As I think I made clear, I believe this based on anecdotal evidence only. If you can find anywhere where I indicated that all Christians are like that, point it out and I'll correct it. If you deny that any Christians are like that, I'll know that you are either willfully ignorant or are lying. If you disagree that enough are like that to affect divorce statistics, I'll have to concede that I lack the evidence to demonstrate it either way. Is that clear now? Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #229,382 by boxley 10/12/05 6:59:16 PM Reply	Fair Dinkum Yes they are christians like you portrayed, one assistant pastor who was also a Realestate agent took my mother not once but 3 times for 150k or so. In the case we are both thinking about I would say rigid thinking is more to blame than christianity because the rigidity part was applied to other than the spiritual side of life. Divorce statistics will show [link\|http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm\|http://www.religious....org/chr_dira.htm] tend to indicate the more conservative you are in politics the more likely to get divorced if you are christian. Even outside of religion simply compare conservative law makers divorce rate with Liberals. Clintons vs the Gingrichs. This does not appear to be a religious issue as much as if "you werer an asshole before you got saved, you are still am asshole, amen" Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups: Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) \t% who have been divorced Non-denominational (small groups; independents) \t34% Baptists \t29% Mainline Protestants \t25% Mormons \t24% Catholics \t21% Lutherans \t21% Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage." thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #229,392 by static 10/12/05 8:40:49 PM Reply	I believe your research. It hearkens back to not only what I [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=229244\|posted above] but also the article linked at the top of the thread. Your experience mirrors my own: a distressingly large number of people think that 'becoming a Christian' absolves them of responsibility. Not true. But a very large number of people in the US have been taught that it does for at least a generation, probably longer, thus giving rise to the teaching like the Prosperity Gospel, and forms of selfishness and self-centredness that you observe. Christian entertainer and satirist [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Taylor\|Steve Taylor] wrote a song about the insular "Christian" communities and how they shut themselves away from the secular world. It's called Guilty By Association. It mocks and derides the type of thinking that stops church-goers from discovering that non-church-goers and athiests can be more moral, more compassionate and less hedonistic than themselves. The ills of the visible US church are known. That you identify all Christians with their errant teaching is unfortunate, but not unsurprising. Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."

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