Post #229,230
10/11/05 10:48:49 PM
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still wiping ass with your stats
your rapidly shifting goalposts For instance I've known many apparently devout Christians (who claim to study the Bible, etc) who rack up a long trail of divorces, are not seen donating charitably, do not support politicians who are for charity, do not volunteer their time and energy, and so on. In short while they claim to be Christian and devote energy to proving it, their actions fit Christian ideals less than most atheists of my aquaintance. are not christians based on doctrine, but based on social club memberships, a christian (and any around correct me if I am wrong) is to acknowledge Jesus as their personal savior, been baptised in a public recognition of their formerly sinful state and live their lives according to the beatitudes. If anyone claims to be christian and does not follow teachings they are akin to raider fans who only acknowledge the silver and black when the raiders are willing and winning. I may claim I am a programmer, but unless I can demonstrate familiarity with programming, can produce psuedo code that is inherently logical I am just as useful claiming to be a practicing psychiatrist and can fail easily at either endevour. Quit judging christians by the self labelled, that is as useful as judging music by the top 40 music stations. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,236
10/11/05 11:13:05 PM
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Correction for you
Christians are not expected to live their lives according to the beatitudes. They are expected to make an attempt. But they believe it to be impossible to achieve the ideal.
That is, the message isn't "accept Jesus and become sinless", it is "accept Jesus and your sins will be forgiven". Furthermore Christianity clearly says that you cannot succeed in being sinless, you need redemption.
Furthermore the examples that I'm thinking of are people who take the Bible a heck of a lot more seriously than your comparison sports metaphor. But they have divorces that they blame on the other person, support politicians who are against charity because those politicians support other issues they care about, and so on. Devotion and sincerity are not in question. Results are.
(To be fair, the cases that I can think of read the Bible and take different lessons from it than I might wish them to take. By their lights they succeed better than they do by mine. Given that they put more energy into figuring out what they should do, who am I to say that they are wrong?)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,241
10/11/05 11:55:55 PM
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There are only two precepts by which a Christian should live
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Yes, it is hard to live up to these commandments, but only if one doesn't understand the concept of love. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians spelled out love:
"Love is patient and is kind; love doesn\ufffdt envy. Love doesn\ufffdt brag, is not proud, doesn\ufffdt behave itself inappropriately, doesn\ufffdt seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; doesn\ufffdt rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."
If we are to live as Christians, love is the only thing that matters. Unfortunately, our society looks on Love as a weakness. Read the above again. Sounds like a strong person to me! The neocons think that any type of sharing, even out of love, is Communist or Socialist. Funny, that taking care of each other and helping each other is only for disaster victims (most of the time.)
We are all disaster victims. Although I don't like the word "victim", perhaps "affectee" is more like it. Everyday, we need the love of others to carry us through this tragi-comedy called Life. What is life worth living if not for love?
Why is it against the grain to stand up for those who are struggling? Why is it that we haven't learned what other prophets have been saying? Love one another!
We are a messed up people. "Civilization" is not civil. The Word of Truth, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, has been bastardized by people uneducated in the ways of Love. Republicans are the Party of the Anti-Christ: "keep your hands off my stack, Jack."
Democrats have a slight advantage in that they at least want to help everyone. But even Dems have lost their way. We have been so Homogenized (tm) and Pasteurized(tm) that our political system is an ugly shade of brown 25. Anyone who even tries to breathe fresh air into our system is cast aside like they are whackos. (Vote for the Kinkster for Texas Governor!)
There are very few people who "get it." Those that do are drowned by the cacaphony of naysayers who immediately hurl labels like harpoons. We are heading for civil war, make no mistake. The Enlightened Ones will rise up against the swirling miasma of greed, contempt and selfishness. It won't be pretty.
As Dan Fogelberg once said (sang)"In times like these, it's hard to keep a man off his knees."
Peace, where art thou?
A.
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #230,528
10/22/05 9:46:15 PM
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Timelier every day.
Indeed, Love - not merely is the word bastardized to sell all manner of unlovely shit - but, as the Bard expands, from an earned [link|http://albionmich.com/valentine.html| insightfulness] -
...
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
\tWithin his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
\tBut bears it out even to the edge of doom.
...
Most folk need to start, practice diligently.. with an animal; alas, many stop there - and some of Those have kids. Poor little bastards. Become just like their parents.
At any rate, there's little of this huge word within the Machiavellian real-'God' of Vulture Capitalism and its acolytes. (Unclear if you can both retain That worship in any next; and also learn anything much? about love, let alone 'Love'. Talk aboutcher dilemmas.
We may get to find out, in years; not decades.
Nice reminder.
moi
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Post #230,537
10/23/05 12:38:20 AM
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love except
per paul
nyone I dont like
first jews then chritians who like jews
anyone I dislike (most o the universe) (as you can tell I dont like Paul)
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,540
10/23/05 1:29:40 AM
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s/two/ten/
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #230,609
10/24/05 2:47:19 AM
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that's so old testament
haven't you heard the news? Jesus cast aside all the "thou shalt nots" and replaced them with a very clear statement of what we are to do. (see above) He led by example. It's a tough act to follow. Harder than obeying the 10 commandments I'd say.
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #230,611
10/24/05 4:08:41 AM
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That depends on how attractive your neighbour's wife is ;-)
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #230,614
10/24/05 6:08:04 AM
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Where'd he do that?
I thought he just added more stuff You Must Do Or God'll Get Ya.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #230,754
10/25/05 2:35:05 AM
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that's the fundamental difference between...
Jews and Christians. Jews believe that Jesus was just another prophet. Christians believe he is exactly who he said he is: the son of God and man. His purpose was not to give us more rules (the law of sin and death) but to show us how we are to live. Some illuminating quotes:
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=John%2012|John 12:47 NIV]
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God\ufffd children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
...
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=John%201:1-18|John 1:12-13, 17 NIV]
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,( Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, which means the LORD saves.) because he will save his people from their sins.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Matthew%201:21|Matthew 1:21 NIV]
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners\ufffdof whom I am the worst.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1%20Timothy%201:15|1 Timothy 1:15 NIV]
... because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Isaiah%2053|Isaiah 53:12 NIV]
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #230,763
10/25/05 4:38:48 AM
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Ar, but where does he rescind the Ten Commandments?
That's right, he doesn't, and in fact reminds you that the TCs still stand, but there's other stuff now as well.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #230,925
10/25/05 9:10:08 PM
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If ya wanna get picky...
Jesus actually only supported six commandments. [link|http://www.beliefnet.com/story/11/story_1110_1.html|http://www.beliefnet...story_1110_1.html] Jesus said, "You shall not murder; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness. Honor your father and mother. Also, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Christ leaves off his inventory: \ufffdYou shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make yourself an idol. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God. Remember the Sabbath Day, and keep it holy.\ufffd
It turns out that the four Commandments Jesus deletes are the ones concurring formal religious practice. The Six Commandments that Jesus endorses are the ones concerning morality, love, and good character. This is a fascinating look at how biblical scholars believe Jesus didn't give a crap about organized religion (yay!) What matters most is that you are a good and decent person! (big surprise!) Jesus, bear in mind, is considered by Christian theology to be voicing the thoughts of the divine. When proclaiming the Ten Commandments, God placed at the top of the list formal religious obligation, exactly what the Establishment Clause of the Constitution forbids government from taking any stand on.
A thousand years later--Moses is believed to have lived about nine centuries before Christ--the Maker, speaking through Jesus, drops the ancient commandments regarding formal religious affiliation, and chooses to emphasize moral behavior and good character, exactly what schools and courts can emphasize without legal constraints.
The Christian denominations have a long history of averting their eyes from the Six Commandments passage, for a self-interested reason--these verses seem to say that denominations are not particularly important, and what denomination wants to call attention to that? Through the course of the Gospels, Jesus makes a number of statements suggesting that God\ufffds interest in religious formality has declined, replaced by a divine emphasis on morality and love.
Christianity, as an institution, pays close heed to Jesus\ufffds admonitions regarding morality and love, but tries to change the subject away from his anti-religious sayings.
For the purposes of the current "Hang Ten" political debate, what matters is that the Six Commandments could readily be posted in any school or public structure, because they do not advocate any particular faith, or even advocate religion at all.
Rather, the Six Commandments advocate ethical precepts we all ought to follow and teach, rules that define a life of good character. The teachings of the Six Commandments are timeless, too: even "You shall not commit adultery" does not mean no fun, it means no breaking the vows of marital fidelity. (The original Greek word translated as "adultery", "moicheuo", refers to monogamy, not sex generally.)
The precepts of the Six Commandments are ones embraced by every leading religion: Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and every minor one that comes to mind.
Let's reprise the Six Commandments again, and imagine the good that could be accomplished by posting them in schools and public buildings, attributed to the radiant rabbi Jesus:
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness.
Honor your father and mother.
Also, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
In these words are everything we need to ground a revival of public character, without the slightest worry of Constitutional challenge.
So--Hang Six! Peace, Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #230,928
10/25/05 9:29:10 PM
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wrong, per his own words
mat 5/17-18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." did heaven and earth pass? Only if you read english like mickey reads the second ammendment. Was the law fufilled? Only until reconciliation of man and G_d and from the looks of shit around here that hasnt happened either. Oh wait a minute Along came Paul (sung to the tune of along came Jones) saying it all doesnt matter because you are gentiles anyway or something like that. Jesus was an observant Jew right until they put him in a grave and for about 60 years later, then everyone was told that jesus and all the people who knew him personally were confused and to follow some homosexual who hated women. Viola Christianity was born. thanx bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,938
10/25/05 9:48:21 PM
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Any chance you could break that down
In "writing" boxlish? I would ever so much like to know what the hell you just said. I know you have two modes. One "writing" and one "speaking" Please use the "writing" one if you respond to this post. Ok?
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #230,943
10/25/05 9:58:07 PM
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Ummm - that was 100% readable.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #230,944
10/25/05 10:09:02 PM
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Actually, clear enough.
I haven't read the context of the passage quoted for nearly half a century so I'm not going to interpret its validity, but box says Jesus was an observant Jew and said no particle of the law was voided until all prophecy was fulfilled.
He then argues it hasn't been fulfilled.
He then proposes that Paul said the law didn't matter because Christians aren't Jews.
Only the last sentence is a little unclear as I can't tell for sure if he means the homosexual who hated women to be Jesus reinterpreted or some other leader of the early church.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #230,948
10/25/05 10:21:14 PM
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no Jesus was a hetro with a toe fetish
Paul was apparently an important rabbi, except he wasnt married, an unheard of state for an important rabbi. Kind of like a married catholic priest would raise a few eyebrows today. He then insisted that men and women be kept separate unless procreating. Never felt the urge to procreate himself. Spent a lot of time in jail and travelled with a single male companion usually younger. All of current christian doctrine can be traced to him based on his firing of the people who actually knew jesus and changing all the rules that jesus followed.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,954
10/25/05 10:57:53 PM
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Thought that's what you meant.
Yes, Christianity went through major restructuring in less than 100 years from the date for Jesus' death. First major editing of scripture and adoption of the Old Testament to justify an authoritarian church, then adapting the Pagan festivals to make conversions easier, and reconstituting favorite local gods and godesses as saints, then vicious sectarian warfare and wholesale murder among Christian communities in the name of Jesus and a loving God.
If you love sausage and Christianity, don't see either one made. Probably the Jahova's Witnesses are as close as you'll get to the real thing in this day and age.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #230,955
10/25/05 11:09:40 PM
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'Toe fetish' my ass
Is it possible that, in all your travels with the Foreign Legion Irregulars [with/beer+broads] you haven't come across ~ (transliterated) 'padmaskar' - and what that foot touching is all about?
(And what that IS about - is yet another indication of what JC was up-to in the unvideotaped years. Or at least: the now novelized character we Call that name, whose itinerary was not covered for a long stretch, in the narratives.)
As if very many.. of those billions of scholarly words, occupying the clerical caste for 20 centuries - Were more than massive gossip / rewrite sessions. But WTF - the credulous will buy Anything intoned often enough, that relieves of the burden of actual personal thought.
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Post #230,946
10/25/05 10:12:12 PM
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sure
\t wrong, per Jesus's own words according to the king james bible mat 5/17-18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Has Heaven and Earth Passed? (OB poke at mmoffet and his ridiculous theories about the second ammendment of the constitution, skip) Only if you read english like mickey reads the second ammendment.end skip{) Was the law fufilled? the law can be fufilled Only until reconciliation of mankind and G_d and from the looks of shit around here that hasnt happened either.(the world is a shithole, no worldwide unanimous theocracy in place, emphasis on the unanimous. Oh wait a minute Along came Paul (sung to the tune of along came Jones) saying it all doesnt matter because you are gentiles anyway or something like that. (Paul the apostle, an early form of neocon) THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT ON Jesus was an observant Jew right until they put him in a grave and for about 60 years later, then everyone was told that jesus and all the people who knew him personally were confused and to follow some homosexual who hated women.THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT OFF Viola Christianity was born. I do Substitute Pastoring for only half of the first goround of the collection plates, and lunch. thanx, bill thanx bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,977
10/26/05 3:33:00 AM
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it's the same stuff
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
[link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:34-46;&version=31;|Matthew 22:35-40] He also said: 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"
[link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010;&version=31;|Mark 10:19] The first quote is just a higher abstraction of the second. The 10 commandments are specific rules of a general principle. Amy supplies this quote: Christ leaves off his inventory: \ufffdYou shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make yourself an idol. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God. Remember the Sabbath Day, and keep it holy.\ufffd
It turns out that the four Commandments Jesus deletes are the ones concurring formal religious practice. The Six Commandments that Jesus endorses are the ones concerning morality, love, and good character. I have a different take on this. The four he didn't mention relate to loving God. The six he named relate to "loving your neighbour". Yet he said the most important commandment is to love God. The second is to love your neighbour. So why did he name those six, instead of the other four? Good question. I don't know. The main thing I see in this is that Jesus valued relationships over rules. For instance, he healed those in need even if it was on the Sabbath, much to the consternation of those who held rules in high regard. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012;&version=31;|Matthew 12] So, if you heed the two rules, "love God" and "love your neighbour", you can forget the other rules 'cause you won't need them. Do unto others etc... Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #230,630
10/24/05 10:37:29 AM
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or so Paul claimed, Jesus said he wouldnt change the law
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,243
10/12/05 12:03:25 AM
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I find much more reasonable the Ancient Egyptian . . .
. . where the heart of the deceased is weighed against a feather - and must balance.
The heart represents the life and soul of the deceased and the feather represents the natural law (for your kind of being - human here on Earth, we presume).
If you've been a real jerk meanie you're obviously going to be way off ballance - but if you've been an super-pious do-godder shit you're also likely to be off balance and holding an appointment with the Eater of the Dead (a crocodile / hippopotamus critter with an eager expression).
You're supposed to live well and do good, but aren't held up to some standard of divine perfection - not in this lifeform, anyway, 'cause it ain't possible.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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