Post #229,171
10/11/05 6:23:46 PM
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their image is different from mine also
Its been a long time since I seen the inside of one also. I think what is happening is that people who do not attend on a regular basis form opinions based on the people who show up in TV and print. They are usually dollar bill preachers or hate mongers or politicians. A group that you will agree do not represent thew rank and file of those who attend regularly and still have time for a life of their own.
In the gas station the other day at the drinks counter I overheard one fellow who quit the local megachurch talking to an ex pew partner that he was tired of being preached to build a new gym A new parking lot, 3 rounds of building fund collections every sunday, he said he wanted a simpler church where worshipping G_d was the main purpose.
Christians in the public eye in America appear hateful, not very spiritual and down right mean at times except for the very few, like Dr. Scott that Ashton enjoys watching.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,175
10/11/05 6:42:30 PM
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I'm NOT just unhappy with the TV preachers
The statistics on how what purported Christians know and how they act versus what you should expect from a Christian shows that there is something fundamentally wrong with the state of Christianity as practiced in America.
The problem isn't a few isolated loons on TV. They are but a symptom. The problem is that those loons got onto TV because a lot of people agree with them. If most Christians in the USA were closer to the beliefs of the person who wrote the above article, then there would still be Christians on TV, but they would be different from the current ones.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,183
10/11/05 7:02:06 PM
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I wipe my ass with your statistics
no science allowed in here:-)
How were those statistics compiled? In churches? Somehow I bet the answer is no. In many small unorganized churches and in catholic ones a weekly lesson drawn from a specifically related portion of the bible is espoused and the congregation if devout spens at least one evening a week reading and discussing a piece of the bible.
I suspect that the statistics were compiled by people identifying themselves as christian out of chameleon coloration. When an american is asked if they are christian it is easier to say sure than say no, I am not since most americans assume other americans are devout.
Now do the same set people and ask them if they are football fans, then ask questions about the rules. Most of them will say they are fans and dont have a clue about the rules. This would then indicate that their social coloration prefers to be known as christian football fans that know nothing about football.
As far as entertainers on TV identifying their entertainment as christian will tickle a lot of fans who dont go to church, know nothing about the bible yet identify themselves as christian watch and support entertainers who espouse their own prejuidices and beliefs.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,200
10/11/05 7:35:14 PM
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No no no, you've got it all wrong
the correct expression is "I piss on your statistics."
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #229,203
10/11/05 7:53:08 PM
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The "no true Scotsman" fallacy, in a new guise!
Yes, the statistics are compiled from people who identify themselves as Christian. And yes, one can question how Christian these people are.
Furthermore I grant that if one restricted your dataset to people who identified themselves as Christian and met some other set of criteria, then you could probably manage to demonstrate that US Christians as a group know and believe almost anything that you want.
But by so doing you're effectively moving the goalposts. You wind up narrowly defining "Christian" in a way that it is not generally understood by the American public. So while you get the conclusion that you want, you are no longer talking the language that anyone else is.
Furthermore many of the things that this article was complaining about apply anecdotally to the people that I've known who are closer to your definition of Christian. For instance I've known many apparently devout Christians (who claim to study the Bible, etc) who rack up a long trail of divorces, are not seen donating charitably, do not support politicians who are for charity, do not volunteer their time and energy, and so on. In short while they claim to be Christian and devote energy to proving it, their actions fit Christian ideals less than most atheists of my aquaintance.
Certainly this does not apply to all Christians of my aquaintance. The first example who comes to mind that people around here know is Robert Brewer (aka tseliot). He is far from alone.
But in my (admittedly limited) experience, they tend to be exceptions. Not the rule. And if I go for broader figures, then we get into the realm of statistics, where the conclusions reinforce my preconceptions again. (Though you can question the data because you question who is really a Christian.)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,214
10/11/05 9:05:20 PM
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show me comparison stats
these versus general pop.
the US is culturally disintegrating...thats not exclusive to "christians".
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #229,218
10/11/05 9:26:04 PM
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You can google for them yourself
[link|http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm|http://www.religious....org/chr_dira.htm] has some sample statistics on divorce. One sample comparison gave that 30% of Jews have been divorced, 27% of born again Christians, 24% of other Christians, and 21% of atheists. (Note that many of those who have never been divorced, will at some point in the future.) If you look at a chart that does a finer breakdown of different kinds of Christians, you'll find a range of divorce rates from 21% for Lutherans and Catholics to 34% for non-denominational Christians (who are probably closest to the group that boxley was just touting).
If you google for crime statistics you'll find similar results: the breakdown of faith in the prison population does not match the general public - conservative Christians are over-represented. (Except that this time Jews won't be a prominent outlier.)
Sure, traditional societal bonds may not be as strong as they once were - but conservative Christians are leading that trend, not following it.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,263
10/12/05 8:08:49 AM
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"Christian"
Is a pretty broad swath. Catholic is probably the most devout group...and southern baptist are the loudest...but also probably on the conservative side of your equation.
You don't go to a "christian" church.
Stats will be faulty because of this.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #229,306
10/12/05 1:10:58 PM
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No true Scotsman again?
I agree that :Christian" covers a broad swathe of people. But it looks to me like your argument comes down to, "If devout Christians are not supposed to have bad results, then the sects of Christians that are having bad results must not really be devout."
Now you may not really be doing that. But that is how it looks to me.
First of all that doesn't match my personal experience. The people that I've known who are towards the conservative end of Christianity tend to be (some hypocritical leaders notwithstanding) plenty sincere. Furthermore you aren't addressing the comparatively good results achieved by (obviously non-devout) atheists. Clearly something matters more here than just being devout.
My theory, massively oversimplified, is that Christianity's underlying message correlates with bad results. Note that I say correlates. I'm not saying that it causes them. (Though in some cases it might.) But there is a positive correlation.
One example is that the message that Jesus redeems our sins has definite appeal for people who are painfully aware of sins that need redeeming. (And the availability of easy "forgiveness" keeps them from really changing.) Yes, I know that that's not how that is supposed to be read. But it is how some people are going to read it. The amount that is cause and the amount that is effect is debateable. But the correlation is obvious.
Another example along the cause line is that Biblical standards for how a husband and wife are to relate are going to work better for some than others. This leads to unhappiness in many marriages. If laws and cultural norms permit (they didn't used to, they tend to now), this leads to divorce. The knowledge on the part of the spouse who was left that, "It wasn't my fault, I did everything according to the Good Book!" keeps him or her (judging from statistics, probably him) from having to examine or address, before, during, or after, the causes of the unhappiness.
By contrast we non-religious people have no shield between our actions and a feeling of personal responsibility for our actions. Obviously not in all cases, but in enough to be statistically significant, that feeling of personal accountability leads to better results.
Which leads to exactly the opposite result of what many religious people believe will happen. They believe that, deprived of the fear of God, there will be nothing to stop atheists from becoming hedonistic criminals. But as both my personal experience and many statistics indicate, atheists don't actually do that. Quite the opposite. By many customary standards of morality, such as divorce and crime, atheists are on average better people than Christians, and atheistic countries are on average better countries than Christian ones! (By other standards, of course, atheists are worse. We are, for instance, more likely to think that abortion and homosexuality are OK, and are not exactly regular Church-goers...)
Yes. I know that I just offended a lot of you. But go look at the statistics instead of trying to explain them away, and see what you think!
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,314
10/12/05 1:38:06 PM
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Don't forget the "not by deeds" thing
I'm not sure of the exact phrasing, or exactly where it comes from, but: "Salvation comes not through works, but through grace/faith." Basically saying that you don't get to heaven by being a good person; no one can be good enough to deserve it. You have to have faith ... in the right thing, of course.
The point of this adminition is that an atheist who lives a "good" life still won't make it into heaven. You still have to have faith. "You have to believe for that to work."[1] I've always suspected that in practice what it meant was that people would tell themselves, "It doesn't matter what I do anyway, so long as I confess it afterwards." This was, after all, the idea behind dispensations: buy forgiveness in advance for what you're about to do.
[1] Bonus "sad person" points for whoever names that movie reference without googling.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #229,316
10/12/05 1:48:54 PM
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Bah! I googled anyway. :-P
Here is the Catholic take on good works:
[link|http://www.justforcatholics.org/salvation_works.htm|http://www.justforca...lvation_works.htm]
AFA atheists are concerned, I have known an atheist or two who are better people than a lot of the "Christians" that I know. My experience is that these so-called "Godless" people are more selfless, more moral, more ethical and downright decent folk.
I guess the only difference is that they don't yell, "Oh God" when climaxing.
:-D
Peace,
Bad Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #229,362
10/12/05 5:05:20 PM
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I didn't
That is part of the wrong question. It is relevant to the "Atheists are going to Hell!" debate, not the, "Are atheists nice people?" debate.
The former question is hard to collect any solid information on. The latter is much easier to, but a lot of people don't like what the collectable information seems to say. (And it is very easy to debate what the collectable information really means - which is what we're doing here.)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,368
10/12/05 5:19:16 PM
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No, it goes to why they do what they do
"They" being some Christians. If they believe it's strictly about grace, and not about works, then it doesn't matter what their works are.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #229,369
10/12/05 5:19:59 PM
10/12/05 5:20:37 PM
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Point. "Jesus died for your sins, make it worth his while!"
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Edited by ben_tilly
Oct. 12, 2005, 05:20:37 PM EDT
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Post #229,372
10/12/05 5:58:46 PM
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I think it's in Ephesians.
In other words, after Jesus's time. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=31|Ephesians 2]: 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions\ufffdit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith\ufffdand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God\ufffd 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. In that translation, the word "grace" only appears once in Luke and 3 times in John, (not at all in Matthew and Mark). I don't think "grace" was a concept that meant much to Jesus, myself. I think it's a concept that gained later importance as the disciples wandered around. Since one of the things that Jesus did was [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&version=31|heal on the Sabbath], I think that works were important to him. FWIW. YMMV. IANATheologian. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #229,381
10/12/05 6:41:56 PM
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But it's a common word -
in the areas visited (allegedly.. ostensibly..) during JC's wandering years.
Further, with the Guru's Grace persists as a phrase today -- despite most (not-Money-Gurus') repeated efforts to reveal that this is a misunderstanding of (say) "what it is that you Are" - as well as an indication that your metaphysical grokking is nowhere near-to "Fullness."
Understandable that Christianity, being as it is, an eclectic synthesis of many other symbolic 'events' and ideas - would continue an idea which is deemed not-quite-bogus, but ? muddies/limits comprehension.
Bible.. grist for an endless NY Times Crossword of the history of thoughts on the evanescent.
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Post #229,326
10/12/05 2:34:27 PM
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I am playing my little violin for you
I think you are personifying your statistics now, The knowledge on the part of the spouse who was left that, "It wasn't my fault, I did everything according to the Good Book!" keeps him or her (judging from statistics, probably him) from having to examine or address, before, during, or after, the causes of the unhappiness. you statistical pool of one? Who you had a verbal shooting match with around here? You now equate your personal experience to "all christians are like that". pull the other one. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,340
10/12/05 3:48:40 PM
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-3 for even hinting about . . . a Statistical 'Proof' of
[anything having to do with homo-sap good/badness]
We have juries for that purpose. Not math (except in the shifty rheumy eyes of Neoconboys, and within the accountant-grade microcephaly of Economists.)
Character is about what you Are.
Reputation is ~ how well you've concealed the odious parts.
Judgment - is an effort to reconcile the two. After an accusation. Preferably before an execution.
One Hitler is a sufficient sample to despise a Hitler - you don't need a graph, you (pseudo-nit)-picking mangler of Sentience!
As to how many (claimed-to-be)-Christians-experienced is [enough to see a pattern]?
How's a Lifetime's worth? and amidst a total of 123,678 last count.. Need I 123,679?
(Work for Redmond a lot, measuring Windows satisfiction , do you..)
:-\ufffd
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Post #229,342
10/12/05 4:00:58 PM
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I didnt bring statistics in here, look ..I.. that way :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,363
10/12/05 5:11:00 PM
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Read, in context, please
I was explicitly saying that that part was my personal theory. I cannot substantiate it, and I believe that it only applies for a fraction of religious people. A statistically significant fraction, perhaps, but still only a fraction.
As I think I made clear, I believe this based on anecdotal evidence only.
If you can find anywhere where I indicated that all Christians are like that, point it out and I'll correct it. If you deny that any Christians are like that, I'll know that you are either willfully ignorant or are lying. If you disagree that enough are like that to affect divorce statistics, I'll have to concede that I lack the evidence to demonstrate it either way.
Is that clear now?
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,382
10/12/05 6:59:16 PM
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Fair Dinkum
Yes they are christians like you portrayed, one assistant pastor who was also a Realestate agent took my mother not once but 3 times for 150k or so. In the case we are both thinking about I would say rigid thinking is more to blame than christianity because the rigidity part was applied to other than the spiritual side of life. Divorce statistics will show [link|http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm|http://www.religious....org/chr_dira.htm] tend to indicate the more conservative you are in politics the more likely to get divorced if you are christian. Even outside of religion simply compare conservative law makers divorce rate with Liberals. Clintons vs the Gingrichs. This does not appear to be a religious issue as much as if "you werer an asshole before you got saved, you are still am asshole, amen" Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) \t% who have been divorced
Non-denominational (small groups; independents) \t34%
Baptists \t29%
Mainline Protestants \t25%
Mormons \t24%
Catholics \t21%
Lutherans \t21%
Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage." thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,392
10/12/05 8:40:49 PM
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I believe your research.
It hearkens back to not only what I [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=229244|posted above] but also the article linked at the top of the thread. Your experience mirrors my own: a distressingly large number of people think that 'becoming a Christian' absolves them of responsibility. Not true. But a very large number of people in the US have been taught that it does for at least a generation, probably longer, thus giving rise to the teaching like the Prosperity Gospel, and forms of selfishness and self-centredness that you observe.
Christian entertainer and satirist [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Taylor|Steve Taylor] wrote a song about the insular "Christian" communities and how they shut themselves away from the secular world. It's called Guilty By Association. It mocks and derides the type of thinking that stops church-goers from discovering that non-church-goers and athiests can be more moral, more compassionate and less hedonistic than themselves.
The ills of the visible US church are known. That you identify all Christians with their errant teaching is unfortunate, but not unsurprising.
Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
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Post #229,230
10/11/05 10:48:49 PM
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still wiping ass with your stats
your rapidly shifting goalposts For instance I've known many apparently devout Christians (who claim to study the Bible, etc) who rack up a long trail of divorces, are not seen donating charitably, do not support politicians who are for charity, do not volunteer their time and energy, and so on. In short while they claim to be Christian and devote energy to proving it, their actions fit Christian ideals less than most atheists of my aquaintance. are not christians based on doctrine, but based on social club memberships, a christian (and any around correct me if I am wrong) is to acknowledge Jesus as their personal savior, been baptised in a public recognition of their formerly sinful state and live their lives according to the beatitudes. If anyone claims to be christian and does not follow teachings they are akin to raider fans who only acknowledge the silver and black when the raiders are willing and winning. I may claim I am a programmer, but unless I can demonstrate familiarity with programming, can produce psuedo code that is inherently logical I am just as useful claiming to be a practicing psychiatrist and can fail easily at either endevour. Quit judging christians by the self labelled, that is as useful as judging music by the top 40 music stations. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,236
10/11/05 11:13:05 PM
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Correction for you
Christians are not expected to live their lives according to the beatitudes. They are expected to make an attempt. But they believe it to be impossible to achieve the ideal.
That is, the message isn't "accept Jesus and become sinless", it is "accept Jesus and your sins will be forgiven". Furthermore Christianity clearly says that you cannot succeed in being sinless, you need redemption.
Furthermore the examples that I'm thinking of are people who take the Bible a heck of a lot more seriously than your comparison sports metaphor. But they have divorces that they blame on the other person, support politicians who are against charity because those politicians support other issues they care about, and so on. Devotion and sincerity are not in question. Results are.
(To be fair, the cases that I can think of read the Bible and take different lessons from it than I might wish them to take. By their lights they succeed better than they do by mine. Given that they put more energy into figuring out what they should do, who am I to say that they are wrong?)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #229,241
10/11/05 11:55:55 PM
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There are only two precepts by which a Christian should live
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Yes, it is hard to live up to these commandments, but only if one doesn't understand the concept of love. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians spelled out love:
"Love is patient and is kind; love doesn\ufffdt envy. Love doesn\ufffdt brag, is not proud, doesn\ufffdt behave itself inappropriately, doesn\ufffdt seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; doesn\ufffdt rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."
If we are to live as Christians, love is the only thing that matters. Unfortunately, our society looks on Love as a weakness. Read the above again. Sounds like a strong person to me! The neocons think that any type of sharing, even out of love, is Communist or Socialist. Funny, that taking care of each other and helping each other is only for disaster victims (most of the time.)
We are all disaster victims. Although I don't like the word "victim", perhaps "affectee" is more like it. Everyday, we need the love of others to carry us through this tragi-comedy called Life. What is life worth living if not for love?
Why is it against the grain to stand up for those who are struggling? Why is it that we haven't learned what other prophets have been saying? Love one another!
We are a messed up people. "Civilization" is not civil. The Word of Truth, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, has been bastardized by people uneducated in the ways of Love. Republicans are the Party of the Anti-Christ: "keep your hands off my stack, Jack."
Democrats have a slight advantage in that they at least want to help everyone. But even Dems have lost their way. We have been so Homogenized (tm) and Pasteurized(tm) that our political system is an ugly shade of brown 25. Anyone who even tries to breathe fresh air into our system is cast aside like they are whackos. (Vote for the Kinkster for Texas Governor!)
There are very few people who "get it." Those that do are drowned by the cacaphony of naysayers who immediately hurl labels like harpoons. We are heading for civil war, make no mistake. The Enlightened Ones will rise up against the swirling miasma of greed, contempt and selfishness. It won't be pretty.
As Dan Fogelberg once said (sang)"In times like these, it's hard to keep a man off his knees."
Peace, where art thou?
A.
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #230,528
10/22/05 9:46:15 PM
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Timelier every day.
Indeed, Love - not merely is the word bastardized to sell all manner of unlovely shit - but, as the Bard expands, from an earned [link|http://albionmich.com/valentine.html| insightfulness] -
...
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
\tWithin his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
\tBut bears it out even to the edge of doom.
...
Most folk need to start, practice diligently.. with an animal; alas, many stop there - and some of Those have kids. Poor little bastards. Become just like their parents.
At any rate, there's little of this huge word within the Machiavellian real-'God' of Vulture Capitalism and its acolytes. (Unclear if you can both retain That worship in any next; and also learn anything much? about love, let alone 'Love'. Talk aboutcher dilemmas.
We may get to find out, in years; not decades.
Nice reminder.
moi
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Post #230,537
10/23/05 12:38:20 AM
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love except
per paul
nyone I dont like
first jews then chritians who like jews
anyone I dislike (most o the universe) (as you can tell I dont like Paul)
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,540
10/23/05 1:29:40 AM
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s/two/ten/
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #230,609
10/24/05 2:47:19 AM
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that's so old testament
haven't you heard the news? Jesus cast aside all the "thou shalt nots" and replaced them with a very clear statement of what we are to do. (see above) He led by example. It's a tough act to follow. Harder than obeying the 10 commandments I'd say.
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #230,611
10/24/05 4:08:41 AM
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That depends on how attractive your neighbour's wife is ;-)
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #230,614
10/24/05 6:08:04 AM
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Where'd he do that?
I thought he just added more stuff You Must Do Or God'll Get Ya.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #230,754
10/25/05 2:35:05 AM
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that's the fundamental difference between...
Jews and Christians. Jews believe that Jesus was just another prophet. Christians believe he is exactly who he said he is: the son of God and man. His purpose was not to give us more rules (the law of sin and death) but to show us how we are to live. Some illuminating quotes:
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=John%2012|John 12:47 NIV]
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God\ufffd children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
...
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=John%201:1-18|John 1:12-13, 17 NIV]
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,( Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, which means the LORD saves.) because he will save his people from their sins.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Matthew%201:21|Matthew 1:21 NIV]
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners\ufffdof whom I am the worst.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1%20Timothy%201:15|1 Timothy 1:15 NIV]
... because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
[link|http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Isaiah%2053|Isaiah 53:12 NIV]
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #230,763
10/25/05 4:38:48 AM
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Ar, but where does he rescind the Ten Commandments?
That's right, he doesn't, and in fact reminds you that the TCs still stand, but there's other stuff now as well.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #230,925
10/25/05 9:10:08 PM
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If ya wanna get picky...
Jesus actually only supported six commandments. [link|http://www.beliefnet.com/story/11/story_1110_1.html|http://www.beliefnet...story_1110_1.html] Jesus said, "You shall not murder; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness. Honor your father and mother. Also, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Christ leaves off his inventory: \ufffdYou shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make yourself an idol. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God. Remember the Sabbath Day, and keep it holy.\ufffd
It turns out that the four Commandments Jesus deletes are the ones concurring formal religious practice. The Six Commandments that Jesus endorses are the ones concerning morality, love, and good character. This is a fascinating look at how biblical scholars believe Jesus didn't give a crap about organized religion (yay!) What matters most is that you are a good and decent person! (big surprise!) Jesus, bear in mind, is considered by Christian theology to be voicing the thoughts of the divine. When proclaiming the Ten Commandments, God placed at the top of the list formal religious obligation, exactly what the Establishment Clause of the Constitution forbids government from taking any stand on.
A thousand years later--Moses is believed to have lived about nine centuries before Christ--the Maker, speaking through Jesus, drops the ancient commandments regarding formal religious affiliation, and chooses to emphasize moral behavior and good character, exactly what schools and courts can emphasize without legal constraints.
The Christian denominations have a long history of averting their eyes from the Six Commandments passage, for a self-interested reason--these verses seem to say that denominations are not particularly important, and what denomination wants to call attention to that? Through the course of the Gospels, Jesus makes a number of statements suggesting that God\ufffds interest in religious formality has declined, replaced by a divine emphasis on morality and love.
Christianity, as an institution, pays close heed to Jesus\ufffds admonitions regarding morality and love, but tries to change the subject away from his anti-religious sayings.
For the purposes of the current "Hang Ten" political debate, what matters is that the Six Commandments could readily be posted in any school or public structure, because they do not advocate any particular faith, or even advocate religion at all.
Rather, the Six Commandments advocate ethical precepts we all ought to follow and teach, rules that define a life of good character. The teachings of the Six Commandments are timeless, too: even "You shall not commit adultery" does not mean no fun, it means no breaking the vows of marital fidelity. (The original Greek word translated as "adultery", "moicheuo", refers to monogamy, not sex generally.)
The precepts of the Six Commandments are ones embraced by every leading religion: Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and every minor one that comes to mind.
Let's reprise the Six Commandments again, and imagine the good that could be accomplished by posting them in schools and public buildings, attributed to the radiant rabbi Jesus:
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness.
Honor your father and mother.
Also, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
In these words are everything we need to ground a revival of public character, without the slightest worry of Constitutional challenge.
So--Hang Six! Peace, Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #230,928
10/25/05 9:29:10 PM
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wrong, per his own words
mat 5/17-18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." did heaven and earth pass? Only if you read english like mickey reads the second ammendment. Was the law fufilled? Only until reconciliation of man and G_d and from the looks of shit around here that hasnt happened either. Oh wait a minute Along came Paul (sung to the tune of along came Jones) saying it all doesnt matter because you are gentiles anyway or something like that. Jesus was an observant Jew right until they put him in a grave and for about 60 years later, then everyone was told that jesus and all the people who knew him personally were confused and to follow some homosexual who hated women. Viola Christianity was born. thanx bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,938
10/25/05 9:48:21 PM
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Any chance you could break that down
In "writing" boxlish? I would ever so much like to know what the hell you just said. I know you have two modes. One "writing" and one "speaking" Please use the "writing" one if you respond to this post. Ok?
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #230,943
10/25/05 9:58:07 PM
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Ummm - that was 100% readable.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #230,944
10/25/05 10:09:02 PM
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Actually, clear enough.
I haven't read the context of the passage quoted for nearly half a century so I'm not going to interpret its validity, but box says Jesus was an observant Jew and said no particle of the law was voided until all prophecy was fulfilled.
He then argues it hasn't been fulfilled.
He then proposes that Paul said the law didn't matter because Christians aren't Jews.
Only the last sentence is a little unclear as I can't tell for sure if he means the homosexual who hated women to be Jesus reinterpreted or some other leader of the early church.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #230,948
10/25/05 10:21:14 PM
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no Jesus was a hetro with a toe fetish
Paul was apparently an important rabbi, except he wasnt married, an unheard of state for an important rabbi. Kind of like a married catholic priest would raise a few eyebrows today. He then insisted that men and women be kept separate unless procreating. Never felt the urge to procreate himself. Spent a lot of time in jail and travelled with a single male companion usually younger. All of current christian doctrine can be traced to him based on his firing of the people who actually knew jesus and changing all the rules that jesus followed.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,954
10/25/05 10:57:53 PM
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Thought that's what you meant.
Yes, Christianity went through major restructuring in less than 100 years from the date for Jesus' death. First major editing of scripture and adoption of the Old Testament to justify an authoritarian church, then adapting the Pagan festivals to make conversions easier, and reconstituting favorite local gods and godesses as saints, then vicious sectarian warfare and wholesale murder among Christian communities in the name of Jesus and a loving God.
If you love sausage and Christianity, don't see either one made. Probably the Jahova's Witnesses are as close as you'll get to the real thing in this day and age.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #230,955
10/25/05 11:09:40 PM
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'Toe fetish' my ass
Is it possible that, in all your travels with the Foreign Legion Irregulars [with/beer+broads] you haven't come across ~ (transliterated) 'padmaskar' - and what that foot touching is all about?
(And what that IS about - is yet another indication of what JC was up-to in the unvideotaped years. Or at least: the now novelized character we Call that name, whose itinerary was not covered for a long stretch, in the narratives.)
As if very many.. of those billions of scholarly words, occupying the clerical caste for 20 centuries - Were more than massive gossip / rewrite sessions. But WTF - the credulous will buy Anything intoned often enough, that relieves of the burden of actual personal thought.
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Post #230,946
10/25/05 10:12:12 PM
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sure
\t wrong, per Jesus's own words according to the king james bible mat 5/17-18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Has Heaven and Earth Passed? (OB poke at mmoffet and his ridiculous theories about the second ammendment of the constitution, skip) Only if you read english like mickey reads the second ammendment.end skip{) Was the law fufilled? the law can be fufilled Only until reconciliation of mankind and G_d and from the looks of shit around here that hasnt happened either.(the world is a shithole, no worldwide unanimous theocracy in place, emphasis on the unanimous. Oh wait a minute Along came Paul (sung to the tune of along came Jones) saying it all doesnt matter because you are gentiles anyway or something like that. (Paul the apostle, an early form of neocon) THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT ON Jesus was an observant Jew right until they put him in a grave and for about 60 years later, then everyone was told that jesus and all the people who knew him personally were confused and to follow some homosexual who hated women.THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT OFF Viola Christianity was born. I do Substitute Pastoring for only half of the first goround of the collection plates, and lunch. thanx, bill thanx bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #230,977
10/26/05 3:33:00 AM
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it's the same stuff
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
[link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:34-46;&version=31;|Matthew 22:35-40] He also said: 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"
[link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010;&version=31;|Mark 10:19] The first quote is just a higher abstraction of the second. The 10 commandments are specific rules of a general principle. Amy supplies this quote: Christ leaves off his inventory: \ufffdYou shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make yourself an idol. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God. Remember the Sabbath Day, and keep it holy.\ufffd
It turns out that the four Commandments Jesus deletes are the ones concurring formal religious practice. The Six Commandments that Jesus endorses are the ones concerning morality, love, and good character. I have a different take on this. The four he didn't mention relate to loving God. The six he named relate to "loving your neighbour". Yet he said the most important commandment is to love God. The second is to love your neighbour. So why did he name those six, instead of the other four? Good question. I don't know. The main thing I see in this is that Jesus valued relationships over rules. For instance, he healed those in need even if it was on the Sabbath, much to the consternation of those who held rules in high regard. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012;&version=31;|Matthew 12] So, if you heed the two rules, "love God" and "love your neighbour", you can forget the other rules 'cause you won't need them. Do unto others etc... Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #230,630
10/24/05 10:37:29 AM
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or so Paul claimed, Jesus said he wouldnt change the law
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,243
10/12/05 12:03:25 AM
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I find much more reasonable the Ancient Egyptian . . .
. . where the heart of the deceased is weighed against a feather - and must balance.
The heart represents the life and soul of the deceased and the feather represents the natural law (for your kind of being - human here on Earth, we presume).
If you've been a real jerk meanie you're obviously going to be way off ballance - but if you've been an super-pious do-godder shit you're also likely to be off balance and holding an appointment with the Eater of the Dead (a crocodile / hippopotamus critter with an eager expression).
You're supposed to live well and do good, but aren't held up to some standard of divine perfection - not in this lifeform, anyway, 'cause it ain't possible.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #229,376
10/12/05 6:22:08 PM
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The Gospel of Luke...if the shoe fits...
From: Luke 11:42-46
The Hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees (Continuation)
---------------------------------------------------------
(Jesus said to the Pharisees,) [42] "But woe to you Pharisees! for you
tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of
God; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
[43] Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the synagogues
and salutations in the market places. [44] Woe to you! for you are like
graves which are not seen, and men walk over them without knowing it."
[45] One of the lawyers answered Him, "Teacher, in saying this You
reproach us also." [46] And He said, "Woe to you lawyers also! for you
load men with burdens hard to bear and you yourselves do not touch the
burdens with one of your fingers."
***********************************************************************
Commentary:
42. The Law of Moses laid down that the harvest had to be tithed (cf.
Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 12:22ff; etc.) to provide for the
worship offered in the temple. Insignificant products were not subject
to this Law.
Rue is a bitter medicinal plant used by the Jews in ancient times. Did
it have to be tithed?: the Pharisees, who were so nit-picking, said
that it did.
44. According to the Old Law, anyone who touched a grave became unclean
for seven days (Num 19:16), but with the passage of time a grave could
become so overgrown that a person could walk on it without noticing.
Our Lord uses this comparison to unmask the hypocrisy of these people
He is talking to: they are very exact about very small details but they
forget their basic duty--justice and the love of God (verse 42). On
the outside they are clean but their hearts are full of malice and
rottenness (verse 39); they pretend to be just, appearances are all
that matters to them; they know that virtue is held in high regard,
therefore they strive to appear highly virtuous (verse 43). Duplicity
and deceit mark their lives.
***********************************************************************
Source: "The Navarre Bible: Text and Commentaries". Biblical text
taken from the Revised Standard Version and New Vulgate. Commentaries
made by members of the Faculty of Theology of the University of
Navarre, Spain. Published by Four Courts Press, Kill Lane, Blackrock,
Co. Dublin, Ireland.
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #229,383
10/12/05 7:01:37 PM
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you are describing neocons :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #229,387
10/12/05 7:11:59 PM
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Bingo!
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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