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New But consider this...
It is hard for us to distinguish you from the people we really dislike. On a few hot-button issues (eg homosexuals and abortion) you agree with the politically powerful hypocrites that we have over here. We see you say things of a religious nature that fit with what they say. We don't see the actions that could distinguish you from them. And you don't venture opinions on political issues that could distinguish you further (eg taxation, social issues, Iraq).

The result is that while you might be very, very different from Bush, Delay, and so on, it is hard for us to tell that.

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Expand Edited by ben_tilly Oct. 12, 2005, 12:53:55 AM EDT
New This is true.
On one example, I find it it is hard to take part in Political discussions here on IWETHEY because they are usually US-centric. (This is a comment, not a criticism.) On another point, finer points of religious discussion don't take place much here, either. I may partly at fault there, though when one feels like one is presenting as a highly visible target when opining such, perhaps that's understandable.

I have a problem with the 'Christianity' that Bush seems to stand for. The article linked at the top of the thread is a very good summation and as I've hinted at, I agree with the articles author in a lot of ways. The Christianity I subscribe to does not agree with "God helps those who help themselves". Instead, it promotes "Seek God's purpose in your life."

I have a problem with the way big multi-nationals constantly try end-runs around governments and consumers. This creates slave-labour in second and third-world countries because its cheaper than employing people in first-world countries, for instance. I have a problem with the amount of political clout people with too much money seem to have. This prevents a viable glass and plastics recycling scheme running anywhere in Australia but in SA, for random instance. I have a problem with the fact that the US is acting like is has to be the world's police force. Too bad that a lot of the rest of the world doesn't seem to want them to do that. Or that the US don't seem to be all that good at it.

A lot of ills mentioned in that article can be attributed to attitudes akin to "God will make things right - whatever I do". That's bullshit. You've got to let Him work. And that's hard. It runs counter to our instincts, often to our breeding. You've got to be able to look at yourself critically and be unafraid of finding something you don't like. That's very hard. But I've been listening for many years to preachers teach that God can and will help you do that - if you put aside your sinful nature and let Him in. Again and again and again, because it's not something that happens Once And For All: it is a process of (hopefully) daily renewal.

Does Bush do this? Does DeLay do this? Does Pat Robertson do this? I don't know. It is easy to lie and say that you do. Dreadfully easy - and few if any will know or can tell. (Unfortuantely, it gets easier over time to say this lie until it's posible to believe it yourself.) Do I do this? No, I do not. At best, I can currently manage weekly. I'm human; I fail. But this is not a copout: it is my recognising that I need His help, too.

A number of missionary organisations are beginning to view the US in a new way: it is a new mission field, one with unique challenges and dangers, but no less worth ministering to. It is one where the fundamental message of salvation has been buried not just under secularism, but under fanatacism. Over here, we can get easily awed at US churches whose average service attendance is in 5 digits - but from what I've heard from people who've actually visited them as well as what I've seen when I've visited large churches here in Australia, that sort of size is too big. People get easily lost in the crowd. The teaching gets watered down and 'the show' starts taking over. People respond to that in much the same way that they respond to performers at pop concerts.

In more ways than one, the US needs someone bigger than them to forcibly corral them and to tell them "you're not coming out until you behave". Unfortunately, were we to find someone big enough to do that, the world would very likely be trading one overgrown bully with an even bigger one. And then there's the problem of just what does "behave" mean? And then there's the problem that that sort of forceful action requires the constant threat of increasing force to stay effective.

Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
New Be careful what you wish for. :-) Consider China in 20 yrs.
New Interesting point.
I hadn't thought of China.

Wade.
d-_-b
     What do you call a liberal Christian? - (ChrisR) - (62)
         That 'Joan of Arc' bit had to be . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
         Both Church and State have the same dilemma - (ben_tilly)
         Illuminating. - (static) - (56)
             Well, there's glory for you. - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                 My favorite is still . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                     Isn't Occident what happens when you don't plan sufficiently -NT - (jb4) - (1)
                         ..only if your oc'cent is on the wrong syl-la'-ble -NT - (Ashton)
             But consider this... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                 This is true. - (static) - (2)
                     Be careful what you wish for. :-) Consider China in 20 yrs. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Interesting point. - (static)
             their image is different from mine also - (boxley) - (47)
                 I'm NOT just unhappy with the TV preachers - (ben_tilly) - (46)
                     I wipe my ass with your statistics - (boxley) - (42)
                         No no no, you've got it all wrong - (jake123)
                         The "no true Scotsman" fallacy, in a new guise! - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                             show me comparison stats - (bepatient) - (16)
                                 You can google for them yourself - (ben_tilly) - (15)
                                     "Christian" - (bepatient) - (14)
                                         No true Scotsman again? - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                                             Don't forget the "not by deeds" thing - (drewk) - (6)
                                                 Bah! I googled anyway. :-P - (imqwerky)
                                                 I didn't - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                     No, it goes to why they do what they do - (drewk) - (1)
                                                         Point. "Jesus died for your sins, make it worth his while!" -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                                 I think it's in Ephesians. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     But it's a common word - - (Ashton)
                                             I am playing my little violin for you - (boxley) - (4)
                                                 -3 for even hinting about . . . a Statistical 'Proof' of - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                     I didnt bring statistics in here, look ..I.. that way :-) -NT - (boxley)
                                                 Read, in context, please - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                     Fair Dinkum - (boxley)
                                             I believe your research. - (static)
                             still wiping ass with your stats - (boxley) - (22)
                                 Correction for you - (ben_tilly) - (21)
                                     There are only two precepts by which a Christian should live - (imqwerky) - (19)
                                         Timelier every day. - (Ashton)
                                         love except - (boxley)
                                         s/two/ten/ -NT - (pwhysall) - (16)
                                             that's so old testament - (cforde) - (15)
                                                 That depends on how attractive your neighbour's wife is ;-) -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                                 Where'd he do that? - (pwhysall) - (12)
                                                     that's the fundamental difference between... - (cforde) - (11)
                                                         Ar, but where does he rescind the Ten Commandments? - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                             If ya wanna get picky... - (imqwerky) - (8)
                                                                 wrong, per his own words - (boxley) - (7)
                                                                     Any chance you could break that down - (Silverlock) - (6)
                                                                         Ummm - that was 100% readable. -NT - (imric)
                                                                         Actually, clear enough. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                                             no Jesus was a hetro with a toe fetish - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                 Thought that's what you meant. - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                                 'Toe fetish' my ass - (Ashton)
                                                                         sure - (boxley)
                                                             it's the same stuff - (cforde)
                                                 or so Paul claimed, Jesus said he wouldnt change the law -NT - (boxley)
                                     I find much more reasonable the Ancient Egyptian . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                     The Gospel of Luke...if the shoe fits... - (imqwerky) - (2)
                         you are describing neocons :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                             Bingo! -NT - (imqwerky)
         An oxymoron. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         Answer: - (imqwerky) - (1)
             OK - you pass - (Ashton)

I say first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon, then beer from a bottle!
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