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New Briefly...
A "permanent underclass" to me means something like the [link|http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/|Untouchables in India]. A class status that is based soley on birth, that is enforced by the dominant culture and laws that existed for years or generations, and that is unchanging. While for generations that was the case for blacks in America, I do not believe that's the case now.

Sure, individual blacks may succeed. But as a group?


To my mind, blacks in America do not represent a permanent underclass. Mobility into the middle and upper economic classes is possible for black men and women in America. Is it more difficult for them than for whites? On average, yes.

Imagine being a black boy growing up with jokes like this being told by your mom. Would you feel motivated to even try? Many don't, and the cycle continues for another generation.


Women who are fond of jokes like that often have personal experiences that enhance the meaning. I would think, though, that if a young child were to hear his mother tell such a joke, he could take it as a counter example of how to behave differently to make his mother happy.

As far as I've seen, this does not happen on a large scale in Canada.


I'll not argue with your observations.

All I can say is that the difficulties faced by blacks in America are much less than they were about 5 decades ago. Poverty in America has much less to do with race than it did about 5 decades ago.

In college I read [link|http://www.pbs.org/fmc/interviews/wilson.htm|William Julius Wilson]'s [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226901297/103-9187968-0443030?v=glance|The Declining Significance of Race]. Although I don't recall much of the details, I think he presents a strong case that the title is correct.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Then we differ on what permanently means
And I'm also less optimistic than you are about the social mobility that blacks enjoy today. I agree that it is more than they did 50 years ago. But I suspect that it slipped in the last decade, and I don't see it going away in the next century.

As for your theory about how kids would be affected by that joke, I agree that the women who told it to me had cause to be unhappy, but I also think that the projects are full of black kids whose reaction is the opposite of the one that you'd hope for.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Bill Bennett demostrates he is a racist - (JayMehaffey) - (101)
         So are you saying poorosity and blackness *don't* correlate? - (CRConrad) - (65)
             Bill Bennett: - (jb4) - (64)
                 Make no mistake yourself - (ben_tilly) - (63)
                     Mandatory enforced abortions will lead to lower crime rates? -NT - (Another Scott)
                     Uh, Ben...Read me in my posts, dude! - (jb4) - (10)
                         You claim the statement is racist. I claim it is factual. - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                             C'mon Ben...you know me better 'n that! - (jb4) - (1)
                                 Thank you for the clarification. - (ben_tilly)
                         want to explain why stating a fact makes you racist? -NT - (boxley) - (6)
                             Fact? What fact? - (jb4) - (5)
                                 Of course crime rate would go down - (boxley) - (4)
                                     What do you mean by rate? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                         youts cause crime,removing youts lessens crime -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                                             True! - (ben_tilly)
                                             Now we're Getting somewhere! - (Ashton)
                     Other correct statement - legalizing drugs will act similar - (tuberculosis)
                     Can we see even a hand-waving proof of that? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (49)
                         I didn't think so. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                             Gimme time to type!!! - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                 Okay. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     Look at timestamps!!! - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                         Touchy, aren't ya? - (mmoffitt)
                         Sure - (ben_tilly) - (43)
                             I dunno - (pwhysall) - (19)
                                 That one is admittedly harder to prove - (ben_tilly) - (18)
                                     Wouldn't last - (drewk) - (17)
                                         Then show me Canada's permanent underclass -NT - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                             I don't know Canadian society that well - (drewk) - (13)
                                                 They don't but... - (ben_tilly) - (12)
                                                     I'm not talking about capitalism, but about human nature - (drewk) - (11)
                                                         Confirmed! 'He who is not One Up is One Down' - (Ashton)
                                                         Slavery also used to be defended as inevitable... - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                                             Where did you see me defending it? - (drewk) - (8)
                                                                 "defended" might be the wrong word - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                                     I may have noticed another aspect - (Ashton)
                                                                     Lots of disagreements - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                         On that last bit... - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                             I don't know about that - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                 You might have a point - see "stranger anxiety" -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                                                             ethiopian comment, they are racially distinct - (boxley)
                                                                         We do have several disagreements - (ben_tilly)
                                             go to the nearest reservation.... -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 Granted, but in numbers and societal impact... - (ben_tilly)
                             Wait a minute... - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                 Right, he disproved the argument they didn't make - (drewk)
                             Man, you took me literally. - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                 "Forever to have nots?" - (imric) - (7)
                                     Let me be a little more clear. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         I don't see it - (imric) - (3)
                                             If it doesn't have to be that way, can you ... - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                 Sure - (drewk)
                                                 Nope! - (imric)
                                         entrenched underclasses are good for business - (boxley) - (1)
                                             Henry Ford would argue with you. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                 That's not *Ben's* reasoning - (drewk) - (2)
                                     You should read him in his posts. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         Because it is - (drewk)
                                 Speaking of handwaving... - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                     What about this... - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                         What does "permanent" mean to you? - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Briefly... - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                 Then we differ on what permanently means - (ben_tilly)
                                     I would then argue for frenco canadians to hold the place - (boxley) - (3)
                                         Not comparable - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             well ya were a west coaster, lets have jake weigh in on this - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 Things are very different now - (jake123)
         Jessie Jackson is a racist too. - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
             Other cool PC issue - (drewk) - (3)
                 Where do you suppose the people in the West Indies came from -NT - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                     China. - (Another Scott)
                 It's not Africa that's the problem . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
             Well, yes - (JayMehaffey) - (2)
                 The question a racist always has to ask, - (Ashton) - (1)
                     They called them indefinitely indentured servants. -NT - (folkert)
         Wrong. Proves hes a statistician - (bepatient) - (20)
             Are all statisticians racist, then? -NT - (mmoffitt)
             A poor one though. - (Another Scott) - (13)
                 You're right, but for the wrong reason - (drewk) - (12)
                     Superbly stated reason why - - (Ashton)
                     A slightly different view. - (Another Scott) - (10)
                         Both your views are 'right' IMO - (Ashton)
                         I think you're misunderstanding his point - (drewk) - (8)
                             Bingo - (bepatient) - (7)
                                 Yes, but be-Not a smug Boolean-head - I know it's Hard, here - (Ashton) - (6)
                                     From you, that's ironic - (drewk) - (4)
                                         Et tu captain clarity: Not. At. All. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                             If by "slogan word" you meant "racism" ... he didn't say it - (drewk) - (2)
                                                 [Raises hand] - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Oohhh.. spinning the def'n of spin! - (Ashton)
                                     Did you hear the entire thread of his show? - (boxley)
             I would suspect both - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                 No, he is not "literally" saying what you claim he is - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     No argument with your qualified restatement, except - - (Ashton) - (2)
                         You don't understand. Gambling is a Virtue. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                             I know.. Guido 'told' me. -NT - (Ashton)
         Jesse weighs in on Bennett (new thread) - (drewk)
         This thread reminds me of a classic PG essay (new thread) - (ben_tilly)
         Just an idiot not a racist - (andread) - (3)
             :-) - (Another Scott) - (2)
                 Spin? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     Considering the original topic seemed to be Social Security - (Another Scott)

I can only take so much at one sitting!
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