What about this...

Post #227,389 by Another Scott 9/30/05 4:29:39 PM Reply	What about this... [link\|http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/00/feb17-00/front5.htm\|Toronto's Underclass]. With the co-operation of Toronto shelters and with the permission of his photographic subjects, Bareket accompanied the Anishnawbe Health Toronto and the Salvation Army Street Patrol on their 4 a.m. forays on the streets of Toronto. He visited numerous shelters and "hidden places" where the homeless live. What he saw - and photographed - is disturbing: a couple living for two years in a four-by-five doorway alcove; a father and son squeegee team; people living in a public bathroom in a park; a 17-year-old girl living in a shelter after her boyfriend kicked her out for getting pregnant; drug and alcohol addicts; a mentally ill women lying in a pool of her own urine. In short, a glimpse of those occupying society's lowest rung. Bareket acknowledges that many have made poor life choices, "but being a drug addict or an alcoholic should not be a reason for being on the street. I don't want to argue over what "Canada's economically significant permanent underclass" means to you and me. The way I use those terms, I don't think that America has one either (e.g. permanent means unchanging to me). FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #227,406 by ben_tilly 9/30/05 6:19:00 PM Reply	What does "permanent" mean to you? In the USA, blacks have been an economically disadvantaged group since before the USA was a country. Furthermore, everyone that I know expects this to continue to be true in another 50 or hundred years. I call this permanent. I admit that in a thousand years the situation may resolve itself. But on the scale of human lifetimes, it is permanent. Sure, individual blacks may succeed. But as a group? Now I'll agree that Canada has desperate people. But they are a smaller a fraction of the population, and are generally not as desperate as disadvantaged people in the USA. Nor are is any large ethnic minority so obviously a significant fraction of them. Why does this matter? Well here is a joke that I've heard from multiple black women: Q: What is the difference between a black man and a large pizza? A: The large pizza can feed a family of four. Imagine being a black boy growing up with jokes like this being told by your mom. Would you feel motivated to even try? Many don't, and the cycle continues for another generation. As far as I've seen, this does not happen on a large scale in Canada. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #227,420 by Another Scott 9/30/05 7:32:01 PM Reply	Briefly... A "permanent underclass" to me means something like the [link\|http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/\|Untouchables in India]. A class status that is based soley on birth, that is enforced by the dominant culture and laws that existed for years or generations, and that is unchanging. While for generations that was the case for blacks in America, I do not believe that's the case now. Sure, individual blacks may succeed. But as a group? To my mind, blacks in America do not represent a permanent underclass. Mobility into the middle and upper economic classes is possible for black men and women in America. Is it more difficult for them than for whites? On average, yes. Imagine being a black boy growing up with jokes like this being told by your mom. Would you feel motivated to even try? Many don't, and the cycle continues for another generation. Women who are fond of jokes like that often have personal experiences that enhance the meaning. I would think, though, that if a young child were to hear his mother tell such a joke, he could take it as a counter example of how to behave differently to make his mother happy. As far as I've seen, this does not happen on a large scale in Canada. I'll not argue with your observations. All I can say is that the difficulties faced by blacks in America are much less than they were about 5 decades ago. Poverty in America has much less to do with race than it did about 5 decades ago. In college I read [link\|http://www.pbs.org/fmc/interviews/wilson.htm\|William Julius Wilson]'s [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226901297/103-9187968-0443030?v=glance\|The Declining Significance of Race]. Although I don't recall much of the details, I think he presents a strong case that the title is correct. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #227,426 by ben_tilly 9/30/05 8:16:30 PM Reply	Then we differ on what permanently means And I'm also less optimistic than you are about the social mobility that blacks enjoy today. I agree that it is more than they did 50 years ago. But I suspect that it slipped in the last decade, and I don't see it going away in the next century. As for your theory about how kids would be affected by that joke, I agree that the women who told it to me had cause to be unhappy, but I also think that the projects are full of black kids whose reaction is the opposite of the one that you'd hope for. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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