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IWETHEY Home / IWETHEY Board / Open Forum / Let me be a little more clear.
Post #227,375
by mmoffitt
9/30/05 3:52:23 PM
Reply
New Let me be a little more clear.
If we agree that for capitalism to "work well" it must mature, then (I think) clearly an underclass will develop. And the longer capitalism is allowed to live, the more entrenched that underclass becomes. Up to the point where there is no escape, in fact.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #227,385
by imric
9/30/05 4:17:41 PM
Reply
New I don't see it
Any more than I see the need for communist societies to be dictatorships.

I believe that our society, based in capitalism can be improved. I do NOT see any need for an 'entrenched' underclass in capitalist society. For some to have more, some must have less, in a society of finite resources. I do NOT think this even implies an underclass. Now, I'm not saying that we don't HAVE an underclass in our (flawed) implementation of capitalism; we do. I'm saying that capitalism does not imply underclass, and lack of an underclass is not mutually exclusive with capitalism.

Socio-economic movement in our country is impaired, yes. It doesn't have to be that way, though.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


Post #227,737
by mmoffitt
10/3/05 12:05:37 PM
Reply
New If it doesn't have to be that way, can you ...
give an example of a pure Capitalist state (iow, one without significant socialist influence) in which a permanent underclass does not exist?
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #227,739
by drewk
Picture of drewk
10/3/05 12:11:28 PM
Reply
New Sure
Right after you show me a pure communist state without a permanent underclass.

Oh wait, there is not pure communist state. Just as there is no pure capitalist state.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Post #227,740
by imric
10/3/05 12:12:51 PM
Reply
New Nope!
Of course, that says absolutely nothing.

Unless, of course, you are going to say that because something isn't, and hasn't been, that means it cannot be. In which case I'll just laugh, and laugh...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


Post #227,478
by boxley
10/1/05 9:50:58 AM
Reply
New entrenched underclasses are good for business
the cops, social workers, prison workers would all have to find real jobs if there was not a designated underclass. What would america's crime statistics and prison population be if all non violent drug and alcohol convictions were removed.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #227,481
by Another Scott
10/1/05 9:57:14 AM
Reply
New Henry Ford would argue with you.
     Bill Bennett demostrates he is a racist - (JayMehaffey) - (101) - Sept. 29, 2005, 01:12:39 PM EDT
         So are you saying poorosity and blackness *don't* correlate? - (CRConrad) - (65) - Sept. 29, 2005, 02:07:50 PM EDT
             Bill Bennett: - (jb4) - (64) - Sept. 29, 2005, 05:52:57 PM EDT
                 Make no mistake yourself - (ben_tilly) - (63) - Sept. 29, 2005, 06:00:17 PM EDT
                     Mandatory enforced abortions will lead to lower crime rates? -NT - (Another Scott) - Sept. 29, 2005, 06:11:30 PM EDT
                     Uh, Ben...Read me in my posts, dude! - (jb4) - (10) - Sept. 29, 2005, 06:20:40 PM EDT
                         You claim the statement is racist. I claim it is factual. - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Sept. 29, 2005, 08:37:40 PM EDT
                             C'mon Ben...you know me better 'n that! - (jb4) - (1) - Sept. 30, 2005, 09:47:02 AM EDT
                                 Thank you for the clarification. - (ben_tilly) - Sept. 30, 2005, 12:04:00 PM EDT
                         want to explain why stating a fact makes you racist? -NT - (boxley) - (6) - Sept. 30, 2005, 09:24:22 AM EDT
                             Fact? What fact? - (jb4) - (5) - Sept. 30, 2005, 09:49:14 AM EDT
                                 Of course crime rate would go down - (boxley) - (4) - Sept. 30, 2005, 10:05:48 AM EDT
                                     What do you mean by rate? - (ben_tilly) - (3) - Sept. 30, 2005, 11:31:38 AM EDT
                                         youts cause crime,removing youts lessens crime -NT - (boxley) - (2) - Sept. 30, 2005, 02:59:29 PM EDT
                                             True! - (ben_tilly) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:02:06 PM EDT
                                             Now we're Getting somewhere! - (Ashton) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:34:14 PM EDT
                     Other correct statement - legalizing drugs will act similar - (tuberculosis) - Sept. 29, 2005, 06:55:54 PM EDT
                     Can we see even a hand-waving proof of that? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (49) - Sept. 30, 2005, 10:06:28 AM EDT
                         I didn't think so. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (4) - Sept. 30, 2005, 11:40:25 AM EDT
                             Gimme time to type!!! - (ben_tilly) - (3) - Sept. 30, 2005, 12:06:51 PM EDT
                                 Okay. - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Sept. 30, 2005, 02:02:22 PM EDT
                                     Look at timestamps!!! - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:00:42 PM EDT
                                         Touchy, aren't ya? - (mmoffitt) - Oct. 3, 2005, 12:10:17 PM EDT
                         Sure - (ben_tilly) - (43) - Sept. 30, 2005, 12:02:52 PM EDT
                             I dunno - (pwhysall) - (19) - Sept. 30, 2005, 12:53:35 PM EDT
                                 That one is admittedly harder to prove - (ben_tilly) - (18) - Sept. 30, 2005, 01:14:08 PM EDT
                                     Wouldn't last - (drewk) - (17) - Sept. 30, 2005, 01:39:18 PM EDT
                                         Then show me Canada's permanent underclass -NT - (ben_tilly) - (16) - Sept. 30, 2005, 03:51:19 PM EDT
                                             I don't know Canadian society that well - (drewk) - (13) - Sept. 30, 2005, 03:54:42 PM EDT
                                                 They don't but... - (ben_tilly) - (12) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:05:37 PM EDT
                                                     I'm not talking about capitalism, but about human nature - (drewk) - (11) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:21:08 PM EDT
                                                         Confirmed! 'He who is not One Up is One Down' - (Ashton) - Sept. 30, 2005, 05:17:51 PM EDT
                                                         Slavery also used to be defended as inevitable... - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Sept. 30, 2005, 06:30:49 PM EDT
                                                             Where did you see me defending it? - (drewk) - (8) - Sept. 30, 2005, 09:25:07 PM EDT
                                                                 "defended" might be the wrong word - (ben_tilly) - (7) - Sept. 30, 2005, 10:01:55 PM EDT
                                                                     I may have noticed another aspect - (Ashton) - Sept. 30, 2005, 11:05:15 PM EDT
                                                                     Lots of disagreements - (drewk) - (5) - Sept. 30, 2005, 11:08:59 PM EDT
                                                                         On that last bit... - (Another Scott) - (3) - Sept. 30, 2005, 11:33:40 PM EDT
                                                                             I don't know about that - (drewk) - (1) - Oct. 1, 2005, 12:51:31 AM EDT
                                                                                 You might have a point - see "stranger anxiety" -NT - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 1, 2005, 12:02:24 PM EDT
                                                                             ethiopian comment, they are racially distinct - (boxley) - Oct. 1, 2005, 09:47:19 AM EDT
                                                                         We do have several disagreements - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 1, 2005, 12:18:21 PM EDT
                                             go to the nearest reservation.... -NT - (boxley) - (1) - Oct. 1, 2005, 09:44:12 AM EDT
                                                 Granted, but in numbers and societal impact... - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 1, 2005, 12:00:12 PM EDT
                             Wait a minute... - (Another Scott) - (1) - Sept. 30, 2005, 01:31:19 PM EDT
                                 Right, he disproved the argument they didn't make - (drewk) - Sept. 30, 2005, 01:41:12 PM EDT
                             Man, you took me literally. - (mmoffitt) - (20) - Sept. 30, 2005, 02:09:34 PM EDT
                                 "Forever to have nots?" - (imric) - (7) - Sept. 30, 2005, 02:21:05 PM EDT
                                     Let me be a little more clear. - (mmoffitt) - (6) - Sept. 30, 2005, 03:52:23 PM EDT
                                         I don't see it - (imric) - (3) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:17:41 PM EDT
                                             If it doesn't have to be that way, can you ... - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Oct. 3, 2005, 12:05:37 PM EDT
                                                 Sure - (drewk) - Oct. 3, 2005, 12:11:28 PM EDT
                                                 Nope! - (imric) - Oct. 3, 2005, 12:12:51 PM EDT
                                         entrenched underclasses are good for business - (boxley) - (1) - Oct. 1, 2005, 09:50:58 AM EDT
                                             Henry Ford would argue with you. -NT - (Another Scott) - Oct. 1, 2005, 09:57:14 AM EDT
                                 That's not *Ben's* reasoning - (drewk) - (2) - Sept. 30, 2005, 02:29:28 PM EDT
                                     You should read him in his posts. - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Sept. 30, 2005, 03:49:39 PM EDT
                                         Because it is - (drewk) - Sept. 30, 2005, 05:13:10 PM EDT
                                 Speaking of handwaving... - (ben_tilly) - (8) - Sept. 30, 2005, 03:58:55 PM EDT
                                     What about this... - (Another Scott) - (3) - Sept. 30, 2005, 04:29:39 PM EDT
                                         What does "permanent" mean to you? - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Sept. 30, 2005, 06:19:00 PM EDT
                                             Briefly... - (Another Scott) - (1) - Sept. 30, 2005, 07:32:01 PM EDT
                                                 Then we differ on what permanently means - (ben_tilly) - Sept. 30, 2005, 08:16:30 PM EDT
                                     I would then argue for frenco canadians to hold the place - (boxley) - (3) - Oct. 1, 2005, 09:56:43 AM EDT
                                         Not comparable - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Oct. 1, 2005, 11:58:05 AM EDT
                                             well ya were a west coaster, lets have jake weigh in on this - (boxley) - (1) - Oct. 1, 2005, 06:43:13 PM EDT
                                                 Things are very different now - (jake123) - Oct. 3, 2005, 03:50:18 PM EDT
         Jessie Jackson is a racist too. - (Andrew Grygus) - (7) - Sept. 29, 2005, 03:02:09 PM EDT
             Other cool PC issue - (drewk) - (3) - Sept. 29, 2005, 03:12:16 PM EDT
                 Where do you suppose the people in the West Indies came from -NT - (tuberculosis) - (1) - Sept. 29, 2005, 03:25:44 PM EDT
                     China. - (Another Scott) - Sept. 29, 2005, 03:34:38 PM EDT
                 It's not Africa that's the problem . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - Sept. 29, 2005, 03:31:38 PM EDT
             Well, yes - (JayMehaffey) - (2) - Sept. 29, 2005, 03:47:43 PM EDT
                 The question a racist always has to ask, - (Ashton) - (1) - Sept. 29, 2005, 04:13:22 PM EDT
                     They called them indefinitely indentured servants. -NT - (folkert) - Sept. 29, 2005, 04:34:26 PM EDT
         Wrong. Proves hes a statistician - (bepatient) - (20) - Sept. 29, 2005, 04:41:23 PM EDT
             Are all statisticians racist, then? -NT - (mmoffitt) - Sept. 29, 2005, 04:54:54 PM EDT
             A poor one though. - (Another Scott) - (13) - Sept. 29, 2005, 05:03:11 PM EDT
                 You're right, but for the wrong reason - (drewk) - (12) - Sept. 29, 2005, 05:10:58 PM EDT
                     Superbly stated reason why - - (Ashton) - Sept. 29, 2005, 05:50:47 PM EDT
                     A slightly different view. - (Another Scott) - (10) - Sept. 29, 2005, 06:10:03 PM EDT
                         Both your views are 'right' IMO - (Ashton) - Sept. 29, 2005, 06:58:00 PM EDT
                         I think you're misunderstanding his point - (drewk) - (8) - Sept. 29, 2005, 07:45:25 PM EDT
                             Bingo - (bepatient) - (7) - Oct. 1, 2005, 04:37:39 AM EDT
                                 Yes, but be-Not a smug Boolean-head - I know it's Hard, here - (Ashton) - (6) - Oct. 1, 2005, 07:50:30 PM EDT
                                     From you, that's ironic - (drewk) - (4) - Oct. 1, 2005, 07:58:39 PM EDT
                                         Et tu captain clarity: Not. At. All. - (Ashton) - (3) - Oct. 1, 2005, 08:39:06 PM EDT
                                             If by "slogan word" you meant "racism" ... he didn't say it - (drewk) - (2) - Oct. 2, 2005, 07:57:51 AM EDT
                                                 [Raises hand] - (Another Scott) - (1) - Oct. 2, 2005, 11:39:00 AM EDT
                                                     Oohhh.. spinning the def'n of spin! - (Ashton) - Oct. 2, 2005, 04:31:19 PM EDT
                                     Did you hear the entire thread of his show? - (boxley) - Oct. 2, 2005, 11:22:18 AM EDT
             I would suspect both - (JayMehaffey) - (4) - Sept. 29, 2005, 10:18:00 PM EDT
                 No, he is not "literally" saying what you claim he is - (ben_tilly) - (3) - Sept. 29, 2005, 10:47:15 PM EDT
                     No argument with your qualified restatement, except - - (Ashton) - (2) - Sept. 29, 2005, 11:04:17 PM EDT
                         You don't understand. Gambling is a Virtue. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (1) - Sept. 29, 2005, 11:08:37 PM EDT
                             I know.. Guido 'told' me. -NT - (Ashton) - Sept. 30, 2005, 05:20:01 PM EDT
         Jesse weighs in on Bennett (new thread) - (drewk) - Sept. 30, 2005, 09:27:21 PM EDT
         This thread reminds me of a classic PG essay (new thread) - (ben_tilly) - Sept. 30, 2005, 11:12:53 PM EDT
         Just an idiot not a racist - (andread) - (3) - Oct. 1, 2005, 08:56:56 AM EDT
             :-) - (Another Scott) - (2) - Oct. 1, 2005, 09:55:53 AM EDT
                 Spin? - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Oct. 1, 2005, 11:42:42 AM EDT
                     Considering the original topic seemed to be Social Security - (Another Scott) - Oct. 1, 2005, 11:58:25 AM EDT

Globes ... or flutes?
102 ms