Post #224,990
9/16/05 11:31:08 AM
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Re: BlackwaterUSA in New Orleans: Mercenaries or BoogieMan
It's not sinister, they where brought in to restore security when police and National Gaurd couldn't get control of the situation.
It is however a horribly bad idea. Mercenaries operating on American soil is a disaster waiting to happen.
Jay
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Post #225,003
9/16/05 12:27:10 PM
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One of the oldest of all political principles
according to Machiavelli, mercenaries are incredibly destructive of republics. Also according to Machiavelli, they can be very useful to princes.
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Post #225,089
9/16/05 5:08:09 PM
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Not by my reading of Machiavelli
My reading indicates that mercenaries can become princes. But he didn't like mercenaries under any circumstances (though he admitted they might temporarily be necessary - in which case making them unnecessary should be of high priority).
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #225,094
9/16/05 5:20:05 PM
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The Prince? Or The Prince and The Discourses?
The Discourses on the first ten chapters of Pliny are his discussion of rRepublics, just as much as the Prince was his discussion of principalities. He states his point of view on the use of mercenaries by republics in the Discourses (which is not nearly as popular a read as The Prince, since The Prince is short and pithy, while the Discourses are long and verbose).
Basically, Republics that start widespread and long-term use of mercenaries tend not to remain Republics for long. He also thinks this is a bad thing.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #225,116
9/16/05 7:40:00 PM
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Both
As you note, he dislikes them in The Discourses because they are a threat to republics (and he preferred Republics).
However in The Prince look at [link|http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince12.htm|Chapter 12] and you'll see that he doesn't think that mercenaries are good for princes, either.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #225,127
9/16/05 11:14:58 PM
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Attentive LRPD: * tilly wonders what the upper limit on
the length of a /topic is.
* tilly suspects that we are about to find out.'
Perhaps it is time to give Thanks that our wastrel Eli likely never read The Prince; even less likely, the Discourses.
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Post #225,144
9/17/05 4:47:22 AM
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Mercs are useful to Princes
when they want them to do things that they can later say "I had nothing to do with." A way of keeping the bloodstained hands looking nice and clean, as well as having a bone to throw to the snarling curs around the table if things get a little heated.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #225,184
9/17/05 12:09:02 PM
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Where does Machiavelli say that?
I linked a chapter in the book. The whole book is there. Please quote chapter and verse. As I say, I read it recently, twice, and don't think that he has anything good to say about mercenaries. I could have missed something, but certainly his main opinion is in the chapter that I directed you to, [link|http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince12.htm|CHAPTER XII: How Many Kinds Of Soldiery There Are, And Concerning Mercenaries].
Lots of people think that virtually anything cynical about power politics is backed up in Machiavelli. Until I read his work, I thought the same. But when I read his book, I found it remarkably consistent. Unpleasant, but consistent. And one consistency is that he disliked mercenaries.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #225,187
9/17/05 12:18:44 PM
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I agree
I feel the same way about Windows consultants.
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Post #225,280
9/18/05 11:19:34 AM
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Machievelli is often attributed to notions he didnt espouse
Mercenaries are both bane and boon much like assasins they must be used wisely and unatributably.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #225,344
9/18/05 6:53:42 PM
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(I wonder if we might be living in a world of Opposites..)
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Post #225,353
9/18/05 7:10:15 PM
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And is more often misapplied.
His statement "The end justifies the means" couldn't be more true in the real world.
How can you judge the appropriateness of the means except by the end they are to achieve, because in the real world practically any means to achieve any end will also do harm one way or another.
This statement is, however, most often applied to justify inappropriate means to an end best left unachieved.
Now The Prince was basically a job application (he didn't get the job), so he may have neglected to define that part adequately so as not to displease princes, though it's clear he preferred republics over princes.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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