Post #222,596
9/3/05 12:31:09 PM
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Where not to build a major city
Don't blame Mother Nature. [link|http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/convert%20to%20tables/New%20Orleans%20Study%20Areatf.htm|Much of New Orleans was below sea level].
Excerpt:
The city of New Orleans, which is at or below sea-level in many areas, is sandwiched between levees from Lake Pontchartrain to the north and the Mississippi River to its south creating the 'bowl' effect so often described.
And here's [link|http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/convert%20to%20tables/New%20Orleans%20Study%20Areatf.htm|an interesting factioid]
Excerpt:
Ironically, all the pumps, canals, and levees that work so hard to keep New Orleans above water are actually causing the city to sink at a rate of three feet per century. Some scientists predict that by the year 2100, the "City That Care Forgot" will be under water.
I say:
Building below sea level is [link|http://www.adultswim.com/shows/sealab/|just plain stupid]. You say you need room to expand your city? Boston ran into the same thing in the 19th century. The Bostonians had the good sense (this was before the Irish took over) to dump some landfill into the Back Bay before building on it.
Oh, and blame global warming? [link|http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/08/eu-environmentalism-score-another-one.html|Not so fast]. This was a manmade disaster, but not by that vector.
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Post #222,600
9/3/05 12:47:56 PM
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That'd be the Netherlands fucked, then.
Oh, wait.
Peter
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Post #222,607
9/3/05 1:39:56 PM
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Does the Netherlands get hit by hurricanes?
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Post #222,613
9/3/05 2:22:50 PM
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So what?
It's not like anyone's unaware of the fact that there are hurricanes on the US gulf coast.
Taiwan's recent encounter with typhoon Talim is evidence that you can build hurricane-proof buildings. I think there was a single fatality.
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4200406.stm|http://news.bbc.co.u...cific/4200406.stm]
Peter
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Post #222,619
9/3/05 2:43:54 PM
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It's not just the water
Typhoon Talim is now en route to south-east China, with sustained winds of up to 144 km/h (90 mph). [link|http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050829/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina|with shrieking, 145-mph winds, Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast just outside New Orleans] There's a big difference in the damage when you go from 90 to 145 mph winds. [link|http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutsshs.shtml|The Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale] Category Two Hurricane:
Winds 96-110 mph (83-95 kt or 154-177 km/hr). Storm surge generally 6-8 feet above normal. Some roofing material, door, and window damage of buildings. Considerable damage to shrubbery and trees with some trees blown down. Considerable damage to mobile homes, poorly constructed signs, and piers. Coastal and low-lying escape routes flood 2-4 hours before arrival of the hurricane center. Small craft in unprotected anchorages break moorings.
Category Four Hurricane:
Winds 131-155 mph (114-135 kt or 210-249 km/hr). Storm surge generally 13-18 ft above normal. More extensive curtainwall failures with some complete roof structure failures on small residences. Shrubs, trees, and all signs are blown down. Complete destruction of mobile homes. Extensive damage to doors and windows. Low-lying escape routes may be cut by rising water 3-5 hours before arrival of the center of the hurricane. Major damage to lower floors of structures near the shore. Terrain lower than 10 ft above sea level may be flooded requiring massive evacuation of residential areas as far inland as 6 miles (10 km). Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #222,622
9/3/05 2:48:19 PM
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Talim was Cat 4 when it hit Taiwan
Peter
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Post #222,626
9/3/05 3:11:25 PM
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Is Talim also below sea level?
Nope? Then I call red herring.
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #222,629
9/3/05 3:16:56 PM
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Point = missed.
Talim was the storm.
New Orleans was not category-5-hurricane-proof, but not because it's technically impossible, but because the $ wasn't spent to make it so.
THAT was my point; Taipei (in Taiwan) is largely cat-5-proof, because they spent the lolly to do it.
Peter
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Post #222,655
9/3/05 6:45:54 PM
9/3/05 6:51:50 PM
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not missed at all
though I did have a braino on typing the storm instead of Taipei.
You start of with a comment about the Netherlands and being below sea level. I ask if they have to cope with hurricanes and you come back with a city in another country that, while it deals with typhoons(hurricanes by another name), is 9 meters above sea level. Just like here in Houston, Taipei will experience flooding during the actual storm; but, after the storm has blown over, all the water nicely drains away.
My point is that New Orleans has to deal with both problems. Building to handle both is obviously going to cost more than just one or the other.
Combine the cost of building to handle both, plus the future costs of dealing with a city that sinking by 3 feet every century(something I don't thing Netherland or Taipei is doing), it's not unreasonable to ask "is it worth it" or "should we rebuild elsewhere".
The question has been asked before in response to flooding in Missouri. They came up with the [link|http://www.sema.state.mo.us/buyout.htm|Missouri Community Buyout Program] to get people to rebuild away from flood prone areas.
Edit - punctuation
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Edited by SpiceWare
Sept. 3, 2005, 06:51:50 PM EDT
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Post #222,615
9/3/05 2:24:42 PM
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Large scale no.
I would venture a guess that the Netherlands would never see a storm even half as devastating as Katruina.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
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Post #222,668
9/3/05 8:56:04 PM
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yes if definition is 75mph winds they do
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Post #222,671
9/3/05 9:09:53 PM
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50 ft seas far from unheard of on N. Sea.
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Post #222,768
9/4/05 5:04:49 PM
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Eventually, yes.
If the terrorists don't get `em first.
But then they're pretty used to getting overrun by ocean water... and by the Germans from time to time. Anything can be tolerated if you just lower your standards enough.
Holland *is* kind of a stupid country.
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Post #222,804
9/4/05 7:13:06 PM
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THE TERRORISTS!
OH MERCY ME! NOT THE TERRORISTS! ANYTHING BUT THE TERRORISTS!
Fuck off, you pathetic little fearmonger.
Peter
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Post #222,624
9/3/05 2:58:22 PM
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Sin city.
Well, strictly speaking, all of Florida is not very far above sea level, and it constantly is subject to hurricanes. Then there's San Francisco and Los Angeles that can suffer a major quake at any moment. Then there's those along the Ohio and Mississippi that are seasonally in danger. And the rest of the country - well Tornados seem to take care of them. Ok, so hindsight is 20-20. I say that we immediately evacuate anyone within 50 miles of a major body of water. That will hopefully prevent anyone from suffering a similar fate.
In the meantime, the people of NOLA got what they deserved and helping them will only lead them to ignore the errors of their way.
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Post #222,638
9/3/05 4:14:14 PM
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Rebuild N. O. at 90 deg S latitude. It's safe there. ;-j
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