Post #219,961
8/18/05 2:07:48 PM
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Re: Shoot-to-kill is nothing new on either side of the pond.
Maybe that's it. Maybe that's the real reason behind the first rumblings of a sense of national pride in me. Maybe the illusion that it is "actually better elsewhere" is fading.
To be sure, cops in this country kill their fair share of innocents. Rodney King got his ass whipped on teevee for all to see. But, Rodney actually threatened a cop before being pulverized. And the reaction included not only tons of news coverage but actual riots in the streets. How many riots have the London murder caused? I don't know, maybe its just the extra heinousness of holding some one down while cops put 7 bullets in his head that makes me recoil at this. I can't imagine something like that happening here without tremendous public outcry.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #219,963
8/18/05 2:14:59 PM
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What makes you think there hasn't been tremendous public
outcry?
Don't forget, just because it hasn't been on your news doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
My take? First, the triggerman needs to lose his job immediately, sans pay. Second, there needs to be a murder investigation to see if he needs to be charged. Third, I think the shoot to kill policy should be revisited, after all, I'm not sure that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is exactly the right model to follow... after all, how well have those techniques worked for them in preventing bombings? Fourth, the family of the victim should sue the Met Police. It will take a while, but I can't see how they could not end up receiving punitive damages against them. Finally, the guy that was taking a piss and erroneously told his fellow officers that one of the suspects had left the building should also be fired immediately.
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Post #219,966
8/18/05 2:36:26 PM
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Linky to tremendous public outcry?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #219,983
8/18/05 5:04:52 PM
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Well, it's big news here
Somehow, I don't doubt that it's big news there too.
As for reportable manifestations of people's opinions on this... it's been what, three days? Considering the strength of the anti-Iraq War movement in the UK, it won't take that long for it to make itself felt.
Let me put it another way... do you expect the talking heads on Fox news or even the BBC to raise a hue and cry? Not bloody likely, but those are the people that are going to have the bully pulpit at first.
How long did it take for their to be a big hue and cry about Ruby Ridge?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #219,987
8/18/05 5:13:30 PM
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Touch\ufffd!
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Post #219,991
8/18/05 5:38:57 PM
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Non sequitor.
Ruby Ridge != an innocent civilian, doing absolutely nothing threatening being ruthlessly murdered by overzealous law officers. HTH.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #219,996
8/18/05 6:13:54 PM
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Yeah, the son was only shot in the back
the wife was shot in the house, from long range.
No way she could have posed an immediate threat to anyone's life, even if a case could be made for the boy, who was carrying a rifle when he was shot.
Relevantly similar, I'd say.
And... how long did it take for their to be a hue and cry? Quite a while, IIRC, but it did show up (and rightly so, imho).
You've got to expect that to take a wee bit of time in Merrie Olde England as well.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,000
8/18/05 6:40:07 PM
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WTF!! what x-files episode were you watching to get that
he was at home doing lawful things, instead of letting the local sheriff walk him in they brought out fbi ninja's who killed the family dog and shot his son in the back while he ran away. I wouldnt want to come out under those conditions either and without being armed no doubt he would be as dead as that brazillian.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,002
8/18/05 6:49:43 PM
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Nit: ATF ninjas, not FBI, IIRC.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,005
8/18/05 6:59:52 PM
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feebs
[link|http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-02-2.html|http://www.cato.org/...s/08-21-02-2.html] On August 21, 1992 a paramilitary unit of the U.S. Marshals Service ventured onto the 20-acre property known as Ruby Ridge. A man named Randy Weaver owned the land and he lived there with his wife, children, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver's arrest for a firearms offense and the marshals were surveilling the premises. When the family dog noticed the marshals sneaking around in the woods, it began to bark wildly. Weaver's 14-year-old boy, Sammy, and Kevin Harris proceeded to grab their rifles because they thought the dog had come upon a wild animal.
A firefight erupted when a marshal shot and killed the dog. Enraged that the family pet had been cut down for no good reason, Sammy shot into the woods at the unidentified trespasser. Within a few minutes, two human beings were shot dead: Sammy Weaver and a marshal. Harris and the Weaver family retreated to their cabin and the marshals retreated from the mountain and called the FBI for assistance.
During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,006
8/18/05 7:32:04 PM
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FBI it is
I read the book by the Weaver's lawyer quite some time back.... must've confused the detail with Waco.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,041
8/18/05 10:50:17 PM
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have you read "from freedom to slavery"? by the lawyer
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,059
8/18/05 11:41:15 PM
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Think that must have been it.
Just looked through his bibliography at Amazon, and that looks like the most likely of his books.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,085
8/19/05 9:09:03 AM
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Thank you for making my point about the difference.
In your own quoted words: "There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver's arrest for a firearms offense..."
Still don't see the HUGE difference? Maybe this will help. Weaver could rightly be presumed to be armed and dangerous. Can you say the same for the Brazilian? Okay, got it now?
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #220,098
8/19/05 11:12:38 AM
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I see, guilty until shot by cops
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,100
8/19/05 11:20:10 AM
8/19/05 11:21:45 AM
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Not at all.
The "victim" in one case was an innocent civilian, in the other the suspect of a crime.
[Edit: that's too brief]. I'm not saying the wife and kid were criminal suspects, but if you live with criminal suspects you enhance greatly your chance of coming to harm. For all the hype from the NRA and gun nuts everywhere, Ruby Ridge was nothing more than an accident which would not have happened were it not for prior acts by Weaver.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Edited by mmoffitt
Aug. 19, 2005, 11:21:45 AM EDT
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Post #220,112
8/19/05 11:53:07 AM
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what was the circumstance of his prior acts?
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,113
8/19/05 11:54:08 AM
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IIRC it was carrying a rifle in his truck.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,128
8/19/05 1:38:24 PM
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make him look, it was balatent entrapment
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,134
8/19/05 2:28:50 PM
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Wasn't aware that carrying a rifle in your truck was illegal
It's not even illegal in Canada, assuming you have the requisite permits for said rifle in the first place. It can be illegal if it's not properly secured (trigger lock, locked box), but if a cop asks you to show it to them and you take it out to show it's properly secured, he can't then turn around and charge you with carrying an unsecured firearm.
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Post #220,146
8/19/05 3:46:42 PM
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It isn't. And that is NOT REMOTELY what it was.
The August 1992 standoff at the Weavers' remote cabin near Naples began after federal agents tried to arrest Randy Weaver for failing to appear in court to face charges of selling two illegal sawed-off shotguns. [link|http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/21/ruby.ridge/|http://www.cnn.com/U...08/21/ruby.ridge/] Randy Weaver was a white separatist nut-case who moved his family to the boondocks to await the end of the world (didn't want his family infected by us sinners). As for the "innocent 13 year old" we have this from a site sympathetic to the Weavers. According to what officers told retired L.A. police captain Frank Isbell at the scene, the siege began on August 21 when a six-man U.S. marshall SWAT team in camouflage fatigues \ufffd and without a warrant \ufffd trespassed on the Weaver property and began a reconnaissance in preparation for an assault on the Weaver home scheduled for sometime in October. When the three Weaver dogs began barking. Weaver, his 13-year-old son Samuel, and family friend Kevin Harris grabbed their rifles and followed the dogs, thinking they had trapped game. Samuel and Harris followed the dogs through the forest while Weaver went around by way of the road to circle the game.
Suddenly, a man in fatigues jumped up from some thick brush and shot one of the dogs. Samuel, not knowing who the intruder was and angry over the death of a dog he had personally raised and trained, fired back. . . whereupon someone fired upon him. wounding him in the shoulder. Samuel turned to run back home when he was hit in the back and killed instantly. [link|http://www.constitution.org/col/san920910.htm|http://www.constitut...col/san920910.htm] "Weaver, his 13-year-old son Samuel, and family friend Kevin Harris grabbed their rifles and followed the dogs, thinking they had trapped game." Thinking they had trapped game - right. I have no idea as to the veracity of the above post. But keep in mind it is written in such a way as to put the most positive light possible upon the Weavers. If it's true, then the lesson here would be don't shoot at a cop if you want to live. bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #220,155
8/19/05 5:03:48 PM
8/19/05 5:04:01 PM
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Yeah, after all, a "man in fatigues" is immediately
identifiable as a cop. No warrant either. How about that.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jake123
Aug. 19, 2005, 05:04:01 PM EDT
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Post #220,167
8/19/05 6:23:07 PM
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DOJ Report on Ruby Ridge.
[link|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/ruby001.htm#tab|Here]. I assume it's authentic. [link|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/Ruby007.htm#R07I03|IV.C.2. Statement of Facts] excerpts: In late September 1991, Hunt and Ely interviewed Beverly and Ed Torrence, who owned land adjacent to the Weaver property. The Torrences explained that they had encountered the Weavers a few days earlier when they had gone up to view their property. At that time, the Torrences drove near the Weaver house and stopped to ask about some property markers. The Weaver dogs came to their car, followed by Sammy Weaver, who called to the house. The Torrences then saw Randy Weaver and "Dennis" looking down on them from a rock outcropping.[FN205] Each held a rifle or shotgun. Thereafter, the Torrences were invited into the Weaver cabin where Randy and Vicki Weaver explained their religious and political views.
Randy Weaver told the Torrences that the Aryans are the true chosen people of Yahweh and that the Jews are impersonators.[FN206] He claimed that a federal informant had introduced him to the Aryan Nations. Weaver also discussed the BATF arrest and that he was expecting federal agents to come to his home, but that he was not going to be arrested by anyone. According to Weaver, he and his family would shoot federal law enforcement officials who came on his property. "If they do take me, I'll take some with me," and that is "[w]hy we have the guns." Beverly Torrence observed that Weaver appeared "vehement in his belief that he would rather fight than go peaceable (sic)."[FN207]
[...]
The Marshals Service is required by statute to execute arrest warrants. Consequently, once a warrant was issued for Randy Weaver's arrest, the Marshals Service had no choice but to undertake efforts to apprehend Weaver. Faced with Weaver's repeated threats to violently resist arrest, the Marshals Service explored many alternative plans designed to capture Weaver, but to do so without harming Weaver, his family or the arresting officers. We believe that the Marshals Service acted properly and with due caution in pursuing this purpose. Moreover, we found no evidence that the Marshals Service was pressured by outside entities or was improperly motivated in its efforts. We find, however, that the court and the U.S. Attorney's Office did not appreciate the difficulties facing the Marshals Service, and made no effort to assist the Marshals Service in devising a peaceful solution to the problem. [link|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/Ruby008.htm#R08I03|IV.D.2. Statement of Facts]: Randy Weaver dictated this account of these events to his daughter, Sara, on August 26, 1992:
Approximately 11:30 Friday morning....the dogs started barking like they always do when strangers walk up the driveway. Randy, Kevin, and Sam ran out to the rock with their weapons. Randy was carrying a double barrel 12 gauge shotgun. Kevin was carrying a 30-06 bolt action rifle. Sam was carrying a 223 mini 14. [FN353] When they got to the rock, our yellow dog Striker was down at the pumphouse barking up into the woods. Randy, Kevin and Sam went down to investigate. Sam said he heard something, or someone running west, so they followed. Sam and Kevin followed Striker. Randy dropped down on the old logging road headed west.
I (Randy Weaver) didn't have any idea what they were chasing, but I was hoping it was a deer. [FN354]
Kevin Harris claimed that, from the intensity of the dog's reaction, he thought that there was "a large animal or a person" in the vicinity.[FN355] Vicki Weaver wrote in her journal on August 21, 1992:
Randy, Kevin and Sam go down past the pump house to see what's bothering the dog. He apparently made the servant of the New World Order retreat down Farnworth Road. They followed the dog part way down.[FN356]
Roderick told Cooper and Degan that a dog and a man with a rifle were running toward them and that they had to move out.[FN357] The OP team heard Roderick say, "Pull back!" and, "the dogs are on us."[FN358] Roderick took the lead as the marshals fled through the woods. The area was thickly forested, and the marshals made a great deal of noise as they ran.[FN359] As they fled down the mountain, the marshals stopped several times to determine whether they were being pursued and saw that they were. Throughout the report there are an awful lot of allegations and reports of statements that Weaver made. And reports of informants. If you believe the report, it doesn't sound as if the federal agents had it in for them. Especially the last bit makes it sound like the allegations that he wouldn't go without taking others with him were his true feelings. I wasn't there, so I don't know what he said, what really happened and why, so don't take my comments as an apology for either side. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #220,168
8/19/05 6:30:04 PM
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if that is a statement of fact I now must turn raellian
if that was the case, weaver would have been convicted on the arresting charge, as well as murder, he was not. The state government wanted to try the killer of mrs weaver, they would not do that unless they believe egregious harm had been done.
The US would not have settled a wrongful death suit in Weavers favor if those were the facts. I would rather go on the testimony under oath of the various proceedings otherwise there was only one shooter in Dallas 1963.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,101
8/19/05 11:20:32 AM
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That hardly covers his wife and son.
She was standing literally babe-in-arms when shot in the head by a sniper. He was running away.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,103
8/19/05 11:22:35 AM
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See Edit above ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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