Curious.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

The August 1992 standoff at the Weavers' remote cabin near Naples began after federal agents tried to arrest Randy Weaver for failing to appear in court to face charges of selling two illegal sawed-off shotguns.

[link|http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/21/ruby.ridge/|http://www.cnn.com/U...08/21/ruby.ridge/]

Randy Weaver was a white separatist nut-case who moved his family to the boondocks to await the end of the world (didn't want his family infected by us sinners).

As for the "innocent 13 year old" we have this from a site sympathetic to the Weavers.

According to what officers told retired L.A. police captain Frank Isbell at the scene, the siege began on August 21 when a six-man U.S. marshall SWAT team in camouflage fatigues \ufffd and without a warrant \ufffd trespassed on the Weaver property and began a reconnaissance in preparation for an assault on the Weaver home scheduled for sometime in October. When the three Weaver dogs began barking. Weaver, his 13-year-old son Samuel, and family friend Kevin Harris grabbed their rifles and followed the dogs, thinking they had trapped game. Samuel and Harris followed the dogs through the forest while Weaver went around by way of the road to circle the game.

Suddenly, a man in fatigues jumped up from some thick brush and shot one of the dogs. Samuel, not knowing who the intruder was and angry over the death of a dog he had personally raised and trained, fired back. . . whereupon someone fired upon him. wounding him in the shoulder. Samuel turned to run back home when he was hit in the back and killed instantly.

[link|http://www.constitution.org/col/san920910.htm|http://www.constitut...col/san920910.htm]

"Weaver, his 13-year-old son Samuel, and family friend Kevin Harris grabbed their rifles and followed the dogs, thinking they had trapped game." Thinking they had trapped game - right.

I have no idea as to the veracity of the above post. But keep in mind it is written in such a way as to put the most positive light possible upon the Weavers. If it's true, then the lesson here would be don't shoot at a cop if you want to live.

[link|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/ruby001.htm#tab|Here]. I assume it's authentic.

[link|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/Ruby007.htm#R07I03|IV.C.2. Statement of Facts] excerpts:

In late September 1991, Hunt and Ely interviewed Beverly and Ed Torrence, who owned land adjacent to the Weaver property. The Torrences explained that they had encountered the Weavers a few days earlier when they had gone up to view their property. At that time, the Torrences drove near the Weaver house and stopped to ask about some property markers. The Weaver dogs came to their car, followed by Sammy Weaver, who called to the house. The Torrences then saw Randy Weaver and "Dennis" looking down on them from a rock outcropping.[FN205] Each held a rifle or shotgun. Thereafter, the Torrences were invited into the Weaver cabin where Randy and Vicki Weaver explained their religious and political views.

Randy Weaver told the Torrences that the Aryans are the true chosen people of Yahweh and that the Jews are impersonators.[FN206] He claimed that a federal informant had introduced him to the Aryan Nations. Weaver also discussed the BATF arrest and that he was expecting federal agents to come to his home, but that he was not going to be arrested by anyone. According to Weaver, he and his family would shoot federal law enforcement officials who came on his property. "If they do take me, I'll take some with me," and that is "[w]hy we have the guns." Beverly Torrence observed that Weaver appeared "vehement in his belief that he would rather fight than go peaceable (sic)."[FN207]

[...]

The Marshals Service is required by statute to execute arrest warrants. Consequently, once a warrant was issued for Randy Weaver's arrest, the Marshals Service had no choice but to undertake efforts to apprehend Weaver. Faced with Weaver's repeated threats to violently resist arrest, the Marshals Service explored many alternative plans designed to capture Weaver, but to do so without harming Weaver, his family or the arresting officers. We believe that the Marshals Service acted properly and with due caution in pursuing this purpose. Moreover, we found no evidence that the Marshals Service was pressured by outside entities or was improperly motivated in its efforts. We find, however, that the court and the U.S. Attorney's Office did not appreciate the difficulties facing the Marshals Service, and made no effort to assist the Marshals Service in devising a peaceful solution to the problem.

[link|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/Ruby008.htm#R08I03|IV.D.2. Statement of Facts]:

Randy Weaver dictated this account of these events to his daughter, Sara, on August 26, 1992:

Approximately 11:30 Friday morning....the dogs started barking like they always do when strangers walk up the driveway. Randy, Kevin, and Sam ran out to the rock with their weapons. Randy was carrying a double barrel 12 gauge shotgun. Kevin was carrying a 30-06 bolt action rifle. Sam was carrying a 223 mini 14. [FN353] When they got to the rock, our yellow dog Striker was down at the pumphouse barking up into the woods. Randy, Kevin and Sam went down to investigate. Sam said he heard something, or someone running west, so they followed. Sam and Kevin followed Striker. Randy dropped down on the old logging road headed west.

I (Randy Weaver) didn't have any idea what they were chasing, but I was hoping it was a deer. [FN354]

Kevin Harris claimed that, from the intensity of the dog's reaction, he thought that there was "a large animal or a person" in the vicinity.[FN355] Vicki Weaver wrote in her journal on August 21, 1992:

Randy, Kevin and Sam go down past the pump house to see what's bothering the dog. He apparently made the servant of the New World Order retreat down Farnworth Road. They followed the dog part way down.[FN356]

Roderick told Cooper and Degan that a dog and a man with a rifle were running toward them and that they had to move out.[FN357] The OP team heard Roderick say, "Pull back!" and, "the dogs are on us."[FN358] Roderick took the lead as the marshals fled through the woods. The area was thickly forested, and the marshals made a great deal of noise as they ran.[FN359] As they fled down the mountain, the marshals stopped several times to determine whether they were being pursued and saw that they were.

Throughout the report there are an awful lot of allegations and reports of statements that Weaver made. And reports of informants.

If you believe the report, it doesn't sound as if the federal agents had it in for them. Especially the last bit makes it sound like the allegations that he wouldn't go without taking others with him were his true feelings.

I wasn't there, so I don't know what he said, what really happened and why, so don't take my comments as an apology for either side.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #219,710 by mmoffitt 8/17/05 10:47:03 AM Reply	Curious. The above event and listening to Blair over the past few weeks has kindled a "love of country" in me. Perhaps I have more faith than I usually care to admit. While it is true that we are fscked up by most anyone's standards, I find myself thinking, "Yes, it's true. We're an overweight, under-educated, xenophobic lot for the most part. And most of us (or at least half who bothered to vote) actually elected His Moroness this time. But we will recover. We will shed the Neocons some time. The majority will never let us get as completely fscked up as Great Britain is right now." bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,796 by pwhysall 8/17/05 5:59:26 PM Reply	You're already way more fucked than we will ever be. Hey, you elected THAT. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #219,801 by inthane-chan 8/17/05 6:18:58 PM Reply	You elected the guy who let himself get ROLLED by that.
Post #219,804 by pwhysall 8/17/05 6:27:03 PM Reply	We'll self-correct, as we did post-Thatcher. You chaps are on a one-way express elevator to hell. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #219,836 by inthane-chan 8/17/05 9:53:09 PM Reply	This is sad. We're playing 'Your leader is dumber than mine...' :( apt-get install godlike-powers
Post #219,853 by Ashton 8/17/05 11:12:45 PM Reply	ICLRPDee (new thread) Created as new thread #219852 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=219852\|ICLRPDee]
Post #219,904 by mmoffitt 8/18/05 10:05:03 AM Reply	Show me where. Point to a somewhere near recent example (hillbilly southern cops in the south in the 1930's doesn't count) of cops holding a suspect down and shooting him 7 times in the head - for doing absolutely NOTHING at all. Show me where criticizing the government is "verbotten" - or even where a law like that in this country is being considered. And don't give me the Patriot Act bullshit. As bad as that is, it doesn't overrule our First Amendment - something we escaped your kind of leadership to create. We've got a ways to go to be as fucked up as you are. And as for elections, you guys had a helluva lot more recent chance to throw Dub's poodle out than we've had to throw your leader's master out. And your guy won by a fuckload larger margin that our guy did. Care to wager on Dub's chances for a third term if it was possible? Here's a hint: -> 0 No sir. My hat's off to you. On the "completely fucked up" scale, you guys have pulled ahead. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,915 by Another Scott 8/18/05 10:25:11 AM Reply	DevAdvo:Don't tell jokes going through airport security. :-/ There are some places where freedom of speech doesn't apply. Standing in line at airport security is one of them. "Oh, but that's private property/different ..." Yeah, there are understandable reasons for it, but it shows that constitutional guarantees aren't as absolute as we might expect. People in the US have been killed under gruesome circumstances too when the cops thought someone was a threat. Remember [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Bailo_Diallo\|Amadou Diallo]? :-( Both the US and the UK will get through this period without turning into some sort of police state. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #219,926 by mmoffitt 8/18/05 11:10:11 AM Reply	Except the UK is already there, man. That's all I'm saying. The UK has a shoot-to-kill-ask-questions-later policy and the authors of that policy enjoy (apparently from their most recent election) a far greater breadth of support than even Dub could ever muster here. We're both in a very dark time, but the UK is pitch black. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,934 by pwhysall 8/18/05 12:05:54 PM Reply	Fight The Powah! Death To The Blair Pigdog! Already there. One police fuckup resulting in one dead Brazilian and you're all excitable. How many people get shot dead by the police in the USA every year, Mike? How many of those are innocent? Shoot-to-kill is nothing new on either side of the pond. It's just that over here, it gets on the news. Remember Gibraltar, the IRA and the SAS? Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #219,939 by boxley 8/18/05 12:13:47 PM Reply	look at the bright side, less bystander deaths on your end "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #219,961 by mmoffitt 8/18/05 2:07:48 PM Reply	Re: Shoot-to-kill is nothing new on either side of the pond. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's the real reason behind the first rumblings of a sense of national pride in me. Maybe the illusion that it is "actually better elsewhere" is fading. To be sure, cops in this country kill their fair share of innocents. Rodney King got his ass whipped on teevee for all to see. But, Rodney actually threatened a cop before being pulverized. And the reaction included not only tons of news coverage but actual riots in the streets. How many riots have the London murder caused? I don't know, maybe its just the extra heinousness of holding some one down while cops put 7 bullets in his head that makes me recoil at this. I can't imagine something like that happening here without tremendous public outcry. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,963 by jake123 8/18/05 2:14:59 PM Reply	What makes you think there hasn't been tremendous public outcry? Don't forget, just because it hasn't been on your news doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. My take? First, the triggerman needs to lose his job immediately, sans pay. Second, there needs to be a murder investigation to see if he needs to be charged. Third, I think the shoot to kill policy should be revisited, after all, I'm not sure that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is exactly the right model to follow... after all, how well have those techniques worked for them in preventing bombings? Fourth, the family of the victim should sue the Met Police. It will take a while, but I can't see how they could not end up receiving punitive damages against them. Finally, the guy that was taking a piss and erroneously told his fellow officers that one of the suspects had left the building should also be fired immediately. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #219,966 by jb4 8/18/05 2:36:26 PM Reply	Linky to tremendous public outcry? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #219,983 by jake123 8/18/05 5:04:52 PM Reply	Well, it's big news here Somehow, I don't doubt that it's big news there too. As for reportable manifestations of people's opinions on this... it's been what, three days? Considering the strength of the anti-Iraq War movement in the UK, it won't take that long for it to make itself felt. Let me put it another way... do you expect the talking heads on Fox news or even the BBC to raise a hue and cry? Not bloody likely, but those are the people that are going to have the bully pulpit at first. How long did it take for their to be a big hue and cry about Ruby Ridge? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #219,987 by Ashton 8/18/05 5:13:30 PM Reply	Touch\ufffd!
Post #219,991 by mmoffitt 8/18/05 5:38:57 PM Reply	Non sequitor. Ruby Ridge != an innocent civilian, doing absolutely nothing threatening being ruthlessly murdered by overzealous law officers. HTH. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,996 by jake123 8/18/05 6:13:54 PM Reply	Yeah, the son was only shot in the back the wife was shot in the house, from long range. No way she could have posed an immediate threat to anyone's life, even if a case could be made for the boy, who was carrying a rifle when he was shot. Relevantly similar, I'd say. And... how long did it take for their to be a hue and cry? Quite a while, IIRC, but it did show up (and rightly so, imho). You've got to expect that to take a wee bit of time in Merrie Olde England as well. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,000 by boxley 8/18/05 6:40:07 PM Reply	WTF!! what x-files episode were you watching to get that he was at home doing lawful things, instead of letting the local sheriff walk him in they brought out fbi ninja's who killed the family dog and shot his son in the back while he ran away. I wouldnt want to come out under those conditions either and without being armed no doubt he would be as dead as that brazillian. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,002 by jake123 8/18/05 6:49:43 PM Reply	Nit: ATF ninjas, not FBI, IIRC. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,005 by boxley 8/18/05 6:59:52 PM Reply	feebs [link\|http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-02-2.html\|http://www.cato.org/...s/08-21-02-2.html] On August 21, 1992 a paramilitary unit of the U.S. Marshals Service ventured onto the 20-acre property known as Ruby Ridge. A man named Randy Weaver owned the land and he lived there with his wife, children, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver's arrest for a firearms offense and the marshals were surveilling the premises. When the family dog noticed the marshals sneaking around in the woods, it began to bark wildly. Weaver's 14-year-old boy, Sammy, and Kevin Harris proceeded to grab their rifles because they thought the dog had come upon a wild animal. A firefight erupted when a marshal shot and killed the dog. Enraged that the family pet had been cut down for no good reason, Sammy shot into the woods at the unidentified trespasser. Within a few minutes, two human beings were shot dead: Sammy Weaver and a marshal. Harris and the Weaver family retreated to their cabin and the marshals retreated from the mountain and called the FBI for assistance. During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,006 by jake123 8/18/05 7:32:04 PM Reply	FBI it is I read the book by the Weaver's lawyer quite some time back.... must've confused the detail with Waco. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,041 by boxley 8/18/05 10:50:17 PM Reply	have you read "from freedom to slavery"? by the lawyer "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,059 by jake123 8/18/05 11:41:15 PM Reply	Think that must have been it. Just looked through his bibliography at Amazon, and that looks like the most likely of his books. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,085 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 9:09:03 AM Reply	Thank you for making my point about the difference. In your own quoted words: "There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver's arrest for a firearms offense..." Still don't see the HUGE difference? Maybe this will help. Weaver could rightly be presumed to be armed and dangerous. Can you say the same for the Brazilian? Okay, got it now? bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,098 by boxley 8/19/05 11:12:38 AM Reply	I see, guilty until shot by cops "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,100 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 11:20:10 AM 8/19/05 11:21:45 AM Reply	Not at all. The "victim" in one case was an innocent civilian, in the other the suspect of a crime. [Edit: that's too brief]. I'm not saying the wife and kid were criminal suspects, but if you live with criminal suspects you enhance greatly your chance of coming to harm. For all the hype from the NRA and gun nuts everywhere, Ruby Ridge was nothing more than an accident which would not have happened were it not for prior acts by Weaver. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 19, 2005, 11:21:45 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #220,112 by boxley 8/19/05 11:53:07 AM Reply	what was the circumstance of his prior acts? "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,113 by jake123 8/19/05 11:54:08 AM Reply	IIRC it was carrying a rifle in his truck. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,128 by boxley 8/19/05 1:38:24 PM Reply	make him look, it was balatent entrapment "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,134 by jake123 8/19/05 2:28:50 PM Reply	Wasn't aware that carrying a rifle in your truck was illegal It's not even illegal in Canada, assuming you have the requisite permits for said rifle in the first place. It can be illegal if it's not properly secured (trigger lock, locked box), but if a cop asks you to show it to them and you take it out to show it's properly secured, he can't then turn around and charge you with carrying an unsecured firearm. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,146 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 3:46:42 PM Reply	It isn't. And that is NOT REMOTELY what it was. The August 1992 standoff at the Weavers' remote cabin near Naples began after federal agents tried to arrest Randy Weaver for failing to appear in court to face charges of selling two illegal sawed-off shotguns. [link\|http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/21/ruby.ridge/\|http://www.cnn.com/U...08/21/ruby.ridge/] Randy Weaver was a white separatist nut-case who moved his family to the boondocks to await the end of the world (didn't want his family infected by us sinners). As for the "innocent 13 year old" we have this from a site sympathetic to the Weavers. According to what officers told retired L.A. police captain Frank Isbell at the scene, the siege began on August 21 when a six-man U.S. marshall SWAT team in camouflage fatigues \ufffd and without a warrant \ufffd trespassed on the Weaver property and began a reconnaissance in preparation for an assault on the Weaver home scheduled for sometime in October. When the three Weaver dogs began barking. Weaver, his 13-year-old son Samuel, and family friend Kevin Harris grabbed their rifles and followed the dogs, thinking they had trapped game. Samuel and Harris followed the dogs through the forest while Weaver went around by way of the road to circle the game. Suddenly, a man in fatigues jumped up from some thick brush and shot one of the dogs. Samuel, not knowing who the intruder was and angry over the death of a dog he had personally raised and trained, fired back. . . whereupon someone fired upon him. wounding him in the shoulder. Samuel turned to run back home when he was hit in the back and killed instantly. [link\|http://www.constitution.org/col/san920910.htm\|http://www.constitut...col/san920910.htm] "Weaver, his 13-year-old son Samuel, and family friend Kevin Harris grabbed their rifles and followed the dogs, thinking they had trapped game." Thinking they had trapped game - right. I have no idea as to the veracity of the above post. But keep in mind it is written in such a way as to put the most positive light possible upon the Weavers. If it's true, then the lesson here would be don't shoot at a cop if you want to live. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,155 by jake123 8/19/05 5:03:48 PM 8/19/05 5:04:01 PM Reply	Yeah, after all, a "man in fatigues" is immediately identifiable as a cop. No warrant either. How about that. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by jake123 Aug. 19, 2005, 05:04:01 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #220,167 by Another Scott 8/19/05 6:23:07 PM Reply	DOJ Report on Ruby Ridge. [link\|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/ruby001.htm#tab\|Here]. I assume it's authentic. [link\|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/Ruby007.htm#R07I03\|IV.C.2. Statement of Facts] excerpts: In late September 1991, Hunt and Ely interviewed Beverly and Ed Torrence, who owned land adjacent to the Weaver property. The Torrences explained that they had encountered the Weavers a few days earlier when they had gone up to view their property. At that time, the Torrences drove near the Weaver house and stopped to ask about some property markers. The Weaver dogs came to their car, followed by Sammy Weaver, who called to the house. The Torrences then saw Randy Weaver and "Dennis" looking down on them from a rock outcropping.[FN205] Each held a rifle or shotgun. Thereafter, the Torrences were invited into the Weaver cabin where Randy and Vicki Weaver explained their religious and political views. Randy Weaver told the Torrences that the Aryans are the true chosen people of Yahweh and that the Jews are impersonators.[FN206] He claimed that a federal informant had introduced him to the Aryan Nations. Weaver also discussed the BATF arrest and that he was expecting federal agents to come to his home, but that he was not going to be arrested by anyone. According to Weaver, he and his family would shoot federal law enforcement officials who came on his property. "If they do take me, I'll take some with me," and that is "[w]hy we have the guns." Beverly Torrence observed that Weaver appeared "vehement in his belief that he would rather fight than go peaceable (sic)."[FN207] [...] The Marshals Service is required by statute to execute arrest warrants. Consequently, once a warrant was issued for Randy Weaver's arrest, the Marshals Service had no choice but to undertake efforts to apprehend Weaver. Faced with Weaver's repeated threats to violently resist arrest, the Marshals Service explored many alternative plans designed to capture Weaver, but to do so without harming Weaver, his family or the arresting officers. We believe that the Marshals Service acted properly and with due caution in pursuing this purpose. Moreover, we found no evidence that the Marshals Service was pressured by outside entities or was improperly motivated in its efforts. We find, however, that the court and the U.S. Attorney's Office did not appreciate the difficulties facing the Marshals Service, and made no effort to assist the Marshals Service in devising a peaceful solution to the problem. [link\|http://web3.foxinternet.net/djf/Ruby008.htm#R08I03\|IV.D.2. Statement of Facts]: Randy Weaver dictated this account of these events to his daughter, Sara, on August 26, 1992: Approximately 11:30 Friday morning....the dogs started barking like they always do when strangers walk up the driveway. Randy, Kevin, and Sam ran out to the rock with their weapons. Randy was carrying a double barrel 12 gauge shotgun. Kevin was carrying a 30-06 bolt action rifle. Sam was carrying a 223 mini 14. [FN353] When they got to the rock, our yellow dog Striker was down at the pumphouse barking up into the woods. Randy, Kevin and Sam went down to investigate. Sam said he heard something, or someone running west, so they followed. Sam and Kevin followed Striker. Randy dropped down on the old logging road headed west. I (Randy Weaver) didn't have any idea what they were chasing, but I was hoping it was a deer. [FN354] Kevin Harris claimed that, from the intensity of the dog's reaction, he thought that there was "a large animal or a person" in the vicinity.[FN355] Vicki Weaver wrote in her journal on August 21, 1992: Randy, Kevin and Sam go down past the pump house to see what's bothering the dog. He apparently made the servant of the New World Order retreat down Farnworth Road. They followed the dog part way down.[FN356] Roderick told Cooper and Degan that a dog and a man with a rifle were running toward them and that they had to move out.[FN357] The OP team heard Roderick say, "Pull back!" and, "the dogs are on us."[FN358] Roderick took the lead as the marshals fled through the woods. The area was thickly forested, and the marshals made a great deal of noise as they ran.[FN359] As they fled down the mountain, the marshals stopped several times to determine whether they were being pursued and saw that they were. Throughout the report there are an awful lot of allegations and reports of statements that Weaver made. And reports of informants. If you believe the report, it doesn't sound as if the federal agents had it in for them. Especially the last bit makes it sound like the allegations that he wouldn't go without taking others with him were his true feelings. I wasn't there, so I don't know what he said, what really happened and why, so don't take my comments as an apology for either side. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #220,168 by boxley 8/19/05 6:30:04 PM Reply	if that is a statement of fact I now must turn raellian if that was the case, weaver would have been convicted on the arresting charge, as well as murder, he was not. The state government wanted to try the killer of mrs weaver, they would not do that unless they believe egregious harm had been done. The US would not have settled a wrongful death suit in Weavers favor if those were the facts. I would rather go on the testimony under oath of the various proceedings otherwise there was only one shooter in Dallas 1963. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,101 by jake123 8/19/05 11:20:32 AM Reply	That hardly covers his wife and son. She was standing literally babe-in-arms when shot in the head by a sniper. He was running away. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,103 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 11:22:35 AM Reply	See Edit above ;0) bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,990 by mmoffitt 8/18/05 5:37:54 PM Reply	One more thing. Your attitude is scary. One police fuckup resulting in one dead Brazilian and you're all excitable. Really. Surely you're not implying that "one dead Brazilian" is okay, are you? bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #219,997 by jake123 8/18/05 6:14:54 PM Reply	When was the last time you demonstrated on behalf of someone wrongly shot by a US police officer, is the point he's making I think. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #219,998 by jb4 8/18/05 6:32:25 PM Reply	Well... ...There was mayor Richard M. Daley's (father of the current mayor — often not-to-respectly referred to as "hizzoner") famous shoot-to-kill order in 1968... There were several demonstrations that that triggered...perhaps you may remember one particular dust-up that occurred around the time of a certain political convention? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,047 by pwhysall 8/18/05 11:16:46 PM Reply	Re: One more thing. Your attitude is scary. There's a hundred thousand dead civilians in Iraq; a hundred thousand Jean Charles Menezes. Killed by UK and US ordnance, for the most part. Three thousand Jean Charles Menezes die every year on the UK's roads; mostly due to bad driving. Forty-three thousand Jean Charles Menezes die every year on the highways of the USA, again, I'll wager, mostly due to bad driving. Thirty-two thousand Jean Charles Menezes die every year in the USA, killed by guns, be it accidental or not. Since 2001, more than seventy Jean Charles Menezes have died in police custody in the USA. My point? My point is that yes, Jean Charles Menezes died at the hands of the police, and was, it seems, innocent. This is a terrible tragedy and deserves a full and proper investigation, with those responsible brought to account. And this is being done. But to go from "one man shot dead wrongly by police" to "The UK is now some kind of hellhole" is, frankly, silly. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,048 by boxley 8/18/05 11:18:41 PM Reply	pay attention marlowe you might learn something "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,049 by pwhysall 8/18/05 11:22:09 PM Reply	Thanks, I think... Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,086 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 9:18:01 AM Reply	Again, a mischaracterization. But to go from "one man shot dead wrongly by police" to "The UK is now some kind of hellhole" is, frankly, silly. A guy in an alley who reaches for his cell phone and the cop thinks he's grabbing a gun and shoots him - THAT is a tragic accident. Cops holding a guy down and pumping 7 rounds into the guy's head is a little more than an accident. The fact that it can be dismissed as "oh, well, that'll happen when we're all trying be kept safe" is, I think, not what the majority here would think or say. That is what I meant by "the UK is more fucked up than we are". It's not my position that the UK is "some kind of hellhole." It is my position - come to by observing the event, the reaction to it and even reading your posts - that the majority of UK'ers are more willing to sacrifice human rights than I thought was possible to gain a little temporary safety. We are different. For example, NO politician here - not even our Neocons - would survive even mentioning support for a shoot-to-kill policy. In the UK, it seems, such a position for a politician is not only tolerated but actually supported. That makes us different to say the least. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,088 by jb4 8/19/05 9:43:13 AM Reply	Goes to show you: Ben Franklin wasn't a Brit... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,089 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 9:50:44 AM Reply	;0) bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,115 by pwhysall 8/19/05 11:58:17 AM Reply	Shoot to kill is fine, in the USA As long as those being shot at are innocent Iraqis who get the living fuck shot out of them by US troops. Take your rose tinted specs off. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,120 by jb4 8/19/05 12:54:44 PM Reply	Excuse me, but can you give me a linky to... ...instances of innocent Iraqis being shot on American soil by an American policeman? (Or do I need to get all CRCish on yer mother-tongue-speaking ass?) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,123 by pwhysall 8/19/05 1:07:38 PM Reply	You keep your tongue away from my ass s/in the USA/with the USA/ but anyway: [link\|http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/september99/090299b.htm\|http://www.commondre...ber99/090299b.htm] 12 hollowpoint bullets for one poor headcase with a hammer. [link\|http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510392000?open&of=ENG-USA\|http://web.amnesty.o...0?open&of=ENG-USA] Unarmed, no criminal record, deader than corduroy. [link\|http://www.courttv.com/archive/national/diallo/chronology.html\|http://www.courttv.c...o/chronology.html] Unarmed, no criminal record, probably a bit deader than the other two on account of the 41 bullets fired at him. [link\|http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=9310252&src=rss/domesticNews\|http://go.reuters.co...=rss/domesticNews] Accidents will happen, I suppose. But she had cocaine in her bloodstream, so she probably had it coming. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,131 by jb4 8/19/05 1:46:42 PM Reply	Hmmmm...not an Iraqi in the bunch. Thanks for playing.... jb4 shrub\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,135 by jake123 8/19/05 2:30:34 PM Reply	You're being intentionally obtuse here. It's not working very well, imho. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #220,156 by jb4 8/19/05 5:11:23 PM Reply	I rather don't think so It was peter's assertion that we're running around here blasting "innocent Iraqis" off the face of the continent, as an explicit national policy. He provided links, purported to support this absurd assertion. I pointed out that the links had fuckall to do with that assertion. And I'm being obtuse. Anything you say, Jake...anything you say. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,157 by pwhysall 8/19/05 5:15:25 PM Reply	s/continent/planet/ As noted in my post. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,160 by jb4 8/19/05 5:25:30 PM Reply	Ididn't know the USA constituted the whole planet! Shoot to kill is fine, in the USA As long as those being shot at are innocent Iraqis who get the living fuck shot out of them by US troops. Try parsing that sentence from your post. If you speak English, you'll see that the assertion is that innocent Iraqis are getting hte living fuck shot out of them by US Troops, in the USA. Now go dangle your modifiers somewhere else, goddammit! jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,161 by pwhysall 8/19/05 5:27:12 PM Reply	Re: Ididn't know the USA constituted the whole planet! "s/in the USA/with the USA/ but anyway:" Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,264 by CRConrad 8/20/05 9:07:49 PM Reply	I can parse that for you: "Shoot to kill is fine, in the USA" == "Shoot-to-kill is considered a fine policy, in the USA" == It's in the USA that the considering is done. So, "Shoot-to-kill Iraqis in Iraq is, in the USA, considered a fine policy" == "Shoot-to-kill Iraqis in Iraq is considered a fine policy, in the USA" == "Shoot to kill is fine, in the USA". So Peter's original unedited sentence CAN very fucking well be read as applying to shooting Iraqis in Iraq. FYI, FWIW, QED, HTH, and all that. (No YMMV, though. 'Coz if it did, it'd be wrong.) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #220,360 by jb4 8/21/05 10:36:37 PM Reply	Mah-noor! And you can take your dangling modifiers and get your ass and Peter's out of my yard. You see, the double-equals in your equation are badly misplaced. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,378 by CRConrad 8/22/05 3:08:40 AM Reply	Your noor, indeed, not mahn. They're placed exactly right.
Post #220,401 by jb4 8/22/05 9:30:40 AM Reply	And all this time, I was amazed at your mastery... ...of what was for you a foreign language. I see now that my admiration was somewhat misplaced. FYI, the word "fine" does not mean "is considered a fine policy", at least in English (and to the best of my limited experience, not in German either; I don't know Finnish, so YMMV.) jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #220,407 by CRConrad 8/22/05 10:20:57 AM Reply	The question wasn't about the WORD, "fine"... ...but the PHRASE, "is fine". Here are some varations on it: - "Whaddayamean, Grelzakianism 'is fine'?" - "Well, Grelzakianism is fine with me!" - "Grelzakianism might 'be fine' where you live... But not here." - "What, is Grelzakianism not fine in Finland?!?" - "That's funny; Grelzakianism is perfectly fine in the USA." So, you're saying the prase "is fine" in this fictional conversation is NOT about how "Grelzakianism" (whatever the fuck that may be; say, a policy) is regarded?!? And here I had been reasonably... Well, let's say, satisfied -- with your grasp of English. But now I see that my impression may have been somewhat exaggerated. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #220,138 by pwhysall 8/19/05 3:18:00 PM Reply	Point being... ...if the US police doesn't actually have a shoot-to-kill policy, it certainly bloody well looks like it. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,141 by boxley 8/19/05 3:20:59 PM Reply	its more a shoot in the general direction of the subject "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,147 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 3:49:17 PM Reply	The difference is we insist on cause. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,164 by boxley 8/19/05 6:05:53 PM Reply	if they are as dark as that brazillian that is cause "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #220,299 by mmoffitt 8/21/05 1:12:44 PM Reply	And when that happens, riots ensue. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,136 by mmoffitt 8/19/05 2:38:00 PM Reply	Interesting choice that third one. Feb. 7: Hundreds of people turn out for a rally outside Diallo's modest two-story building in the Soundview section of the South Bronx, the first of a growing series of protests. Hundreds of people protesting in a growing series of protests three days after the event. It's been what? Three weeks since the London murder? How many folks in the street in London over this? Any way you slice it, the actions of the police on that day in London are clearly acceptable to the majority there. qed. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #220,137 by pwhysall 8/19/05 3:06:15 PM Reply	If it validates your worldview. I give up. You've made up your mind. "Clearly acceptable", when it's "clearly" nothing of the sort. But you keep on believing whatever it is you need to believe about whomsoever you need to believe it. [link\|http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=usa+police+shooting&btnG=Search\|http://www.google.co...oting&btnG=Search] Do SOME research, please. What's the top result? (Clue: "Outrage grows in England over mistaken police killing", USA Today) Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #220,177 by imqwerky 8/19/05 7:27:42 PM 8/19/05 7:36:08 PM Reply	ICLRPD You keep your tongue away from my ass /me shakes head violently to remove mental image! Peace? Amy Yeah, yeah. I screwed it up again. One of these days I won't have such a greasy trigger finger. :-P "The notion of limited government and frugal government has been shattered by this administration, which cares far less about limited government than it does in building conservative government - a government with huge payoffs to corporate America," Allan Lichtman, a presidential historian at American University in Washington. Edited by imqwerky Aug. 19, 2005, 07:36:08 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #219,797 by Ashton 8/17/05 6:00:52 PM Reply	Beg to compare absurdities, before experiencing that 'lump' as goes with the Anthems n'stuff: I'd place bets on a temporarily fear-besotted UK correcting its excesses - - -over- The Base - that overly-influential possessed minority of Fundamentalist zealots who have Proven that Here they can even.. Push the River: that former-River wherein dwelt The Repos; our Machiavellian caste who were content with the tawdry 'life' of being 99.96% interested in personal $aggrandizement / and in cubicle-izing the proles (while classifying all personnel as belonging on the Debit-side of the biznessbottom line.) Now - that Spine-chilling O.T.-Fear-besotted clan has sway over entire Red States; such conversions are never amenable to Reason, let alone that vaunted 'logic', as requires actual communication 'twixt the polarized opposites. Sorry, no lumps in danger of arising here; not till the staph infection shows some sign of being successfully eaten by whatever healthy T-cells are still left in circulation.. if we even have a working immune system anymore. Murica needs an Exorcist; UK just needs a normal 2x4 upside the body-politic-Head.

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