Post #219,684
8/17/05 8:01:19 AM
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couple of counter points
"1) Lots of taxes are eliminated, including income, payroll, estate and gift taxes. Gee. Who will benefit the most from that?" taxes should not be punishment for making a decent living
aside from the promote saving and investment I agree with the rest of the findings
your premise of sales taxes and realestate is a canard its the buyer who pays sales tax, not the seller. Plus if you sell at a profit no capital gains would be assessed.
Every dollar of income tax collected from a wealthy is a dollar that could be spent elsewhere, like on payroll.
Now what is the burden of ensuring that tobacco farmer A is properly using his allotment and McFud is properly using the accelerated depreciation schedule vs gimme 23% of your sales. Enforcement is easier, not smaller but easier.
thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #219,691
8/17/05 8:46:13 AM
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Taxes aren't punishment.
At least they're not if the rates are reasonable - unlike the 98% or so that the UK was charging in the 1960s. Taxes are the cost of living under a government that provides necessary and wanted services. You don't see the Federal Government amassing huge stockpiles of cash, do you? It's always in deficit. The US doesn't collect enough taxes for the spending it does. I said, "Who will benefit the most from that?" Everyone who is able to should contribute toward upkeep of the government. Just like your example of the draft, if everyone who is able to contributes, then it keeps the government on its toes. If those who are most able contribute less (on a percentage basis) than someone who has to work 2 or 3 jobs to get by, then that's not a sustainable system. Something will break down. Either people will find ways to avoid the taxes they view as unfair, or ... There's little doubt that the people who would benefit the most from this Fair Tax scheme (it's even a "risky scheme" except it has no chance of passage) are the very wealthy. your premise of sales taxes and realestate is a canard its the buyer who pays sales tax, not the seller. Plus if you sell at a profit no capital gains would be assessed. 1) Most people who sell a house have to buy another one. Often a more expensive one. The tax would still be collected from the original seller in most cases. 2) I didn't notice anything in the bill about capital gains - I got the impression that all retail sales (except to charities, some business transactions, etc.) were under the sales tax. (I'm too lazy to check it again.) They do say they want to eliminate multiple taxation, but as it stands now up to $500k of profit on a home sale is not taxed federally. It seems to me that this bill would change that. I think you have more confidence in the bill being written in such a way that clever tax lawyers can't put in loopholes. I'm not so sanguine. I remember when leasing became the rage because of its tax treatment.... How we feel about the rest of it depends on our biases and who's economic analysis we believe. I'll agree to disagree. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #219,791
8/17/05 5:44:24 PM
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Your punishment...
is my fairness.
It is unhealthy for a democracy to have persistent great extremes of wealth. Because those with money wind up with power and influence and a desire to maintain all three. And that desire is not most easily achieved in a democracy.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #219,807
8/17/05 6:46:06 PM
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*Brevity* Award.. now if 200M more can get that -
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Post #219,981
8/18/05 4:57:42 PM
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Re: couple of counter points
>Every dollar of income tax collected from a wealthy is a dollar that could be spent elsewhere, like on payroll.
Every dollar of income tax collected from a middle class is a dollar that would have been spent elsewhere, like on food, health care, housing, or education.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #219,982
8/18/05 5:03:40 PM
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Post of the Day. Congrats!
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Post #219,984
8/18/05 5:05:43 PM
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And further ...
Every dollar of income tax taken from a poor person is a choice of which necessity to go without this month.
I've come to the conclusion supply-side theory is bunk. Give a poor man a hundred dollars and he'll spend it. The drug war has proven that if there are people with money to spend, someone will do what it takes to supply that demand. If someone crunches the numbers and decides it's not a good risk to start a business, instead of subsidizing the supply how about we subsidize the demand?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #219,985
8/18/05 5:06:16 PM
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Besides, the wealthy have had a lot of tax cuts in the last
few years, and I'm not seeing it show up in payroll. See Warren Buffet for his take on that; he wrote a paper which is posted on the Berkshire Hathaway website.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #220,001
8/18/05 6:44:04 PM
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thank you for making my point
Every dollar of income tax collected from a middle class is a dollar that would have been spent elsewhere, like on food, health care, housing, or education exactly, no more 33% withholding and a 23% sales tax with the current poverty line (in my house thats 34k per year) getting an upfront debit card to reflect the base needs of that family. Since I am a cheap bastard this would be great. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,018
8/18/05 9:02:51 PM
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Some day. Some day.
You have the ability. I hope that some day you overcome your laziness and make a coherent post.
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #220,042
8/18/05 10:52:45 PM
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what was incoherent about that?
tod said INCOME tax by the middle class could be spent on nescessities, I agreed with him and further stated since I try not to spend that much the 23% sales tax would affect me that much what part about math logic and common sense do you have trouble with? thanx. bill there is a sign around here somewhere
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,083
8/19/05 8:39:44 AM
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What part of punctuation and grammar don't you understand?
Right back atcha. I'm getting massivly tired of having to decipher your posts. Stop being so damned lazy. It's rude and it makes you someone who is too much trouble to read.
I tend to skip any posts you make till someone else gives a reply. "Worse than Ashton" is something I never thought I'd say.
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #220,099
8/19/05 11:14:45 AM
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my made up words are better than his? Thanx!
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #220,108
8/19/05 11:39:10 AM
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Welcome.
Still want you to stop being so damned lazy though.
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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