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New "The Fair Tax" replacing all national income taxes
with a 23% sales tax (23% being revenue neutral) everyhousehold gets a livingfloor check at the begining of the month to cover poverty level expenses food etc. no more payroll or federal witholding. one is the medicare bite also. The author claims that prices will equalize so that $100 spent for an item will still be $100 including the tax (with fluctuations of course.)
[link|http://www.townhall.com/columnists/matttowery/mt20050812.shtml|http://www.townhall..../mt20050812.shtml]
First, a look at the authors. Boortz isn't just another talking head who's written a book. Years ago in Atlanta, he doubled as a successful attorney and local talk radio host. He now enjoys national syndication of his morning show.
worth discussing.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New I listened to Boortz in Atlanta when I was a teenager.
He was on a tiny little talk station (WRNG). I remember one evening another host there was so despearate for callers that when he gave the weather report he said it was 157 degrees with 235% humidity. Still, nobody called....

Anyway, when I was a young teenager I would listen to him quite a bit. One Saturday it was pretty quiet until a woman called up, very upset. She related a story from her daughter. She said that her daughter was driving and was pulled over by the Georgia State Patrol. She politely asked why she was pulled over, and the officer began cursing at her. For no reason. The abuse went on for a while, then the officer let her go. He didn't charge her with anything, didn't say what she had done wrong, didn't give her a warning. The woman said she that she was very upset that her daughter was treated that way.

Neil listened to her and asked her a few questions and that was the end of it. But when she was off the line, he started a rant about how the caller was upset because her daughter got a ticket from the fine, upstanding officers who were doing their duty to protect us all. I couldn't believe it. The phone lines apparently lit up with callers supporting his version of things. I couldn't believe that either. So I called up and said that he should apologize to her for misrepresenting what she said, repeated that she said she didn't get a ticket, etc., etc. He gave a bit of an apology, but it seemed rather half hearted. Another fellow called in a couple of minutes later and said that my version was correct, so that made me feel a little better.

It was a real eye-opener for me.

At least at that time (~ 1974), Boortz was a very bright fellow who knew how to manipulate his listeners. While he had a strong point of view and enjoyed sharing it, getting the support of his listeners (ratings) was his primary goal. I wouldn't trust his views about tax reform farther than I could throw them without independent verification of his "facts".

YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I like the general idea
I like the general idea, but it won't achive at least one of it's stated goals, getting rid of the IRS. Somebody will have to collect the sales tax, somebody will have to issue the refund checks, somebody will have to rule on corner cases, and somebody will have to deal with tax fraud. They might call it something else, but it will serve the same function.

The idea of a national sales tax is such a radically different basis for collecting government money that it becomes hard to judge the economic effects.

One of my big concerns is if they are talking about a sales tax or a value added tax? A sales tax applies to every sale, and is thus much simpler but also encourages large conglomerate companies that can minimize the amount of purchasing they do. On the other hand a VAT is more complex and more open to fraud, but more fair for small companies and individual reselling.

In the end I don't think what is critical is how the tax is collected so much as making the tax simple. The entire tax code should fit into a 30 page manual and everything you need to know as an individual paying your own taxes should fit on a postcard.

Jay
New its paid at retail only and as far as independant goes
Boortz is a boor but he is very bright. The economics were done by a harvard economist. According to Neil's website his opinionbs are his
www.boortz.com
Don't believe anything you read on this web page, or, for that matter, anything you hear on The Neal Boortz Show, unless it is consistent with what you already know to be true, or unless you have taken the time to research the matter to prove its accuracy to your satisfaction. This is known as "doing your homework."
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Define retail
Sounds simple, but I used to know a well off guy that ran a buisness selling toys of the rich, like moterboats and ATVs. Except he never got to the sell part, just the buy without paying sales tax part and the show off and test part.


Still, compared to the abuses of our current system that would not be a huge problem and if the legislation is written carefully it can be minimized.

Jay
New Maybe, Rush Limbaugh also has a nationally syndicated talk
show. That doesn't mean I give him any weight either. Not discounting it, just need to check out the numbers.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New It's a bad bill. (Long)
[link|http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109:./temp/~c109ThJiDb|HR 25].

It has less than 30 sponsors according to Linder's [link|http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:nv4QhBPaun8J:linder.house.gov/_pdfs/4.FairTax-HouseCo-Sponsors.pdf+HR+25+sponsor&hl=en&client=firefox-a|list].

Why's it bad?

1) Lots of taxes are eliminated, including income, payroll, estate and gift taxes. Gee. Who will benefit the most from that?

2) It'll be administrated by the States. That's a way of passing on the cost of the scheme to the states without federal oversight. Want to bet on whether enough money will be appropriated to run the system reliably? The IRS has quite a bit of trouble with their IT systems and that's under a single organization. Imagine what 50 IT systems will be like that have to coordinate with each other in their reporting to the Treasury.

3) It takes the premise that taxes are bad, rather than taxes are an essential part of having a functioning government. It in particular says:

SEC. 2. CONGRESSIONAL FINDINGS.

(a) Findings Relating to Federal Income Tax- Congress finds the Federal income tax--
___(1) retards economic growth and has reduced the standard of living of the American public;
___(2) impedes the international competitiveness of United States industry;
___(3) reduces savings and investment in the United States by taxing income multiple times;
___(4) slows the capital formation necessary for real wages to steadily increase;
___(5) lowers productivity;
___(6) imposes unacceptable and unnecessary administrative and compliance costs on individual and business taxpayers;
___(7) is unfair and inequitable;
___(8) unnecessarily intrudes upon the privacy and civil rights of United States citizens;
___(9) hides the true cost of government by embedding taxes in the costs of everything Americans buy;
___(10) is not being complied with at satisfactory levels and therefore raises the tax burden on law abiding citizens; and
___(11) impedes upward social mobility.

(b) Findings Relating to Federal Payroll Taxes- Congress finds further that the Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes and self-employment taxes--
___(1) raise the cost of employment;
___(2) destroy jobs and cause unemployment; and
___(3) have a disproportionately adverse impact on lower income Americans.

(c) Findings Relating to Federal Estate and Gift Taxes- Congress finds further that the Federal estate and gift taxes--
___(1) force family businesses and farms to be sold by the family to pay such taxes;
___(2) discourage capital formation and entrepreneurship;
___(3) foster the continued dominance of large enterprises over small family-owned companies and farms; and
___(4) impose unacceptably high tax planning costs on small businesses and farms.

(d) Findings Relating to National Sales Tax- Congress finds further that a broad-based national sales tax on goods and services purchased for final consumption--
___(1) is similar in many respects to the sales and use taxes in place in 45 of the 50 States;
___(2) will promote savings and investment;
___(3) will promote fairness;
___(4) will promote economic growth;
___(5) will raise the standard of living;
___(6) will increase investment;
___(7) will enhance productivity and international competitiveness;
___(8) will reduce administrative burdens on the American taxpayer;
___(9) will improve upward social mobility; and
___(10) will respect the privacy interests and civil rights of taxpayers.


They may believe all of these evils and may believe all of these "will"s, but there's little evidence for it. There is no other country, certainly no other economy the size of the US, that only has a sales tax to support the government.

There are some big assumptions in this legislation. For instance, that prices will fall greatly once something is only taxed when it reaches the final consumer. I'll bet it'll work out the way CDs were *so* much cheaper than vinyl albums too, right? Cheaper to manufacture, higher quality, smaller form factor -> guaranteed lower prices! Yes, somehow, it didn't work out that way. Gee, I wonder why.

Prices paid by consumers have a lot more to do with a) history; b) competition; c) perceived value; d) raw materials; and e) other expenses than taxes. Since so much of manufacturing and so many service industries have been under pressure for many years, I can imagine that if their costs suddenly dropped by 23% that they would work very hard to keep their prices the same and enjoy the increased profitablity. Or maybe even pay their employees more. What happens if this windfall of lower prices doesn't materialize?

While the bill is fairly short, there's still a lot of wiggle room in the definitions of various things, like family, and business, and inter-business transfer. Enforcement officers and tax lawyers will still be needed. So much for increased efficiency.

The bill claims that it'll increase savings. Did it occur to Linder (and others) that the reason why the US savings rate is so low is that interest rates are low? Many people figure that it makes more sense to spend their cash than sock it away in a 1.5% APY savings account. As interest rates creep up in the US, I expect the savings rate to rise again.

There are a few big problems lurking too. What about profits from selling a home? Lots of people are looking forward to that $250k/$500k tax free on their home sales profit. Oh, you mean that when I sell my home for $500k I'll now have to give up $115k+ to pay the sales tax? That'll be really popular, won't it?

Social Security and Medicare taxes will still be collected, but out of this sales tax pot. There will still have to be a bureaucracy to keep track of things. But notice how going to a sales tax introduces other complications with respect to Social Security. Employers will still have to report wages of employees to the SSA - so there goes the "increased privacy benefit".

The bill defines what qualifies as a Family for tax purposes. Why does it need to do that? Why do businesses get the benefit of the doubt, but people have to register and prove they're members of a "Qualified Family" every year to get the government supplied "consumption allowance"?

Taxes will be assessed each month, so rebates and deductions for bad debts, insurance payments, etc., etc. will have to be done every month. Rather than once a year. Yeah, that'll improve efficiency and reduce time spent figuring taxes. Uh huh.

It would do away with the estate tax - a tax that Teddy Roosevelt [link|http://www.pgtoday.com/pgt/articles/mt_rushmore_and_a_history.htm|championed]:

"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government.\ufffd The wealthy individual needs to pay for the \ufffdprotection\ufffd that the State provides for his or her property - a military force that defends private property from foreign threat and a legal system/police force that protects private property from domestic theft. Roosevelt is echoing Adam Smith\ufffds observation in the Wealth of Nations: \ufffdIt is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate that the owner of valuable property can sleep a single night in security.\ufffd

Like all of the other members of the estate tax Mount Rushmore club, Roosevelt had no intentions of taxing small estates. \ufffdIt is most desirable to encourage thrift and ambition, and a potent source of thrift and ambition is the desire on the part of the breadwinner to leave his children well off. This object can be attained by making the tax very small on moderate amounts of property.\ufffd Roosevelt\ufffds estate tax was aimed at enormous fortunes like those of the Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Astors and Morgans.


Or Waltons and Gates and Mars and [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/11/AR2005081102013.html|all of the others in the top 1%]. The estate tax is important and should be retained.

It ends corporate income taxes. While one can argue that customers and share holders end up paying corporate taxes anyway, one need only look at Microsoft to realize that corporations become dangerously powerful when they accumulate too much wealth. A (properly run) corporate income tax system is necessary to control corporate power.

[link|http://www.brendoman.com/hippydave/2005/08/02/p8293|This] post has some more comments on it.

Bottom line: It's a sop for the far right wing. It won't go anywhere in Congress. If it did, it would reduce the tax load on the wealthy (as they can save more of their income than the middle class or the poor). It would be inefficiently administered, would increase the paperwork burden on most people, and would not provide the benefits to the country that the current system does. It would lead to an America even more strongly tilted toward the wealthy. It would not be "Fair" it would be manifestly unfair.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Nicely run down; it had all the earmarks of A. Einstein's
pithiest of remarks -
Things should be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.

I appreciate your deconstructing it though; guess I've seen too much snake oil to often go through the motions, any more. Prop 13 in CA comes to mind - all those unintended consequences, culminating in CA moving from #1? 3? in Educational performance to.. wtf we are now -- #67 or something, just ahead of Georgia?.

But 13 was So Simple - see, you can keep your house tax low [and Much-more importantly, for being left-out of the equation and the pandering to voters: Bizness could evade, finally, Most-all Their property taxes too] Etc. Save-$$-Get Dumbth.

Still, Joe-sixpack, ever anxious to get back to NASCAR on the 120" Tee Vee - - won't be seeing your list reprinted anywhere he reads (Hotrod? Hustler?). And the Vader cabal, ever assisted by the Nintendo Eloi - are well aware of the progress they've made re eliminating ALL Inheritance taxes, via the same stratagem used in naming other Bills (And in Calif: Propositions)
== Label them the opposite of their intended effect.

PATRIOT Act anyone? Still seems to work.
Ergo: the Orwellian Death Tax campaign will succeed as usual, (further humiliating the US by confirming for all, our tungsten-carbide impenetrable Gullibility)

-OR- some pretty unusual Upset will occur! this time.

I see only two options:
Pray to the $$ God (and any Others of choice)
Sacrifice (enough..) Neoconmen.


Reason, sure as usual, is irrelevant in these matters.
(It's really Hard to acknowledge that, though.. Still! Isn't it?)
I mean.. once upon a time we used to think that -

New couple of counter points
"1) Lots of taxes are eliminated, including income, payroll, estate and gift taxes. Gee. Who will benefit the most from that?"
taxes should not be punishment for making a decent living

aside from the promote saving and investment I agree with the rest of the findings

your premise of sales taxes and realestate is a canard its the buyer who pays sales tax, not the seller. Plus if you sell at a profit no capital gains would be assessed.

Every dollar of income tax collected from a wealthy is a dollar that could be spent elsewhere, like on payroll.

Now what is the burden of ensuring that tobacco farmer A is properly using his allotment and McFud is properly using the accelerated depreciation schedule vs gimme 23% of your sales. Enforcement is easier, not smaller but easier.

thanx,
bill

"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Taxes aren't punishment.
At least they're not if the rates are reasonable - unlike the 98% or so that the UK was charging in the 1960s.

Taxes are the cost of living under a government that provides necessary and wanted services. You don't see the Federal Government amassing huge stockpiles of cash, do you? It's always in deficit. The US doesn't collect enough taxes for the spending it does.

I said, "Who will benefit the most from that?" Everyone who is able to should contribute toward upkeep of the government. Just like your example of the draft, if everyone who is able to contributes, then it keeps the government on its toes.

If those who are most able contribute less (on a percentage basis) than someone who has to work 2 or 3 jobs to get by, then that's not a sustainable system. Something will break down. Either people will find ways to avoid the taxes they view as unfair, or ...

There's little doubt that the people who would benefit the most from this Fair Tax scheme (it's even a "risky scheme" except it has no chance of passage) are the very wealthy.

your premise of sales taxes and realestate is a canard its the buyer who pays sales tax, not the seller. Plus if you sell at a profit no capital gains would be assessed.


1) Most people who sell a house have to buy another one. Often a more expensive one. The tax would still be collected from the original seller in most cases. 2) I didn't notice anything in the bill about capital gains - I got the impression that all retail sales (except to charities, some business transactions, etc.) were under the sales tax. (I'm too lazy to check it again.) They do say they want to eliminate multiple taxation, but as it stands now up to $500k of profit on a home sale is not taxed federally. It seems to me that this bill would change that.

I think you have more confidence in the bill being written in such a way that clever tax lawyers can't put in loopholes. I'm not so sanguine. I remember when leasing became the rage because of its tax treatment....

How we feel about the rest of it depends on our biases and who's economic analysis we believe. I'll agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Your punishment...
is my fairness.

It is unhealthy for a democracy to have persistent great extremes of wealth. Because those with money wind up with power and influence and a desire to maintain all three. And that desire is not most easily achieved in a democracy.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New *Brevity* Award.. now if 200M more can get that -

New Re: couple of counter points
>Every dollar of income tax collected from a wealthy is a dollar that could be spent elsewhere, like on payroll.

Every dollar of income tax collected from a middle class is a dollar that would have been spent elsewhere, like on food, health care, housing, or education.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Post of the Day. Congrats!
New And further ...
Every dollar of income tax taken from a poor person is a choice of which necessity to go without this month.

I've come to the conclusion supply-side theory is bunk. Give a poor man a hundred dollars and he'll spend it. The drug war has proven that if there are people with money to spend, someone will do what it takes to supply that demand. If someone crunches the numbers and decides it's not a good risk to start a business, instead of subsidizing the supply how about we subsidize the demand?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Besides, the wealthy have had a lot of tax cuts in the last
few years, and I'm not seeing it show up in payroll. See Warren Buffet for his take on that; he wrote a paper which is posted on the Berkshire Hathaway website.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New thank you for making my point
Every dollar of income tax collected from a middle class is a dollar that would have been spent elsewhere, like on food, health care, housing, or education
exactly, no more 33% withholding and a 23% sales tax with the current poverty line (in my house thats 34k per year) getting an upfront debit card to reflect the base needs of that family. Since I am a cheap bastard this would be great.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Some day. Some day.
You have the ability. I hope that some day you overcome your laziness and make a coherent post.
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.

--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
New what was incoherent about that?
tod said INCOME tax by the middle class could be spent on nescessities, I agreed with him and further stated since I try not to spend that much the 23% sales tax would affect me that much what part about math logic and common sense do you have trouble with?
thanx.
bill
there is a sign around here somewhere
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New What part of punctuation and grammar don't you understand?
Right back atcha. I'm getting massivly tired of having to decipher your posts. Stop being so damned lazy. It's rude and it makes you someone who is too much trouble to read.

I tend to skip any posts you make till someone else gives a reply. "Worse than Ashton" is something I never thought I'd say.
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.

--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
New my made up words are better than his? Thanx!
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Welcome.
Still want you to stop being so damned lazy though.
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.

--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
     "The Fair Tax" replacing all national income taxes - (boxley) - (21)
         I listened to Boortz in Atlanta when I was a teenager. - (Another Scott)
         I like the general idea - (JayMehaffey) - (2)
             its paid at retail only and as far as independant goes - (boxley) - (1)
                 Define retail - (JayMehaffey)
         Maybe, Rush Limbaugh also has a nationally syndicated talk - (tuberculosis)
         It's a bad bill. (Long) - (Another Scott) - (15)
             Nicely run down; it had all the earmarks of A. Einstein's - (Ashton)
             couple of counter points - (boxley) - (13)
                 Taxes aren't punishment. - (Another Scott)
                 Your punishment... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     *Brevity* Award.. now if 200M more can get that - -NT - (Ashton)
                 Re: couple of counter points - (tuberculosis) - (9)
                     Post of the Day. Congrats! -NT - (Another Scott)
                     And further ... - (drewk)
                     Besides, the wealthy have had a lot of tax cuts in the last - (jake123)
                     thank you for making my point - (boxley) - (5)
                         Some day. Some day. - (Silverlock) - (4)
                             what was incoherent about that? - (boxley) - (3)
                                 What part of punctuation and grammar don't you understand? - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                     my made up words are better than his? Thanx! -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Welcome. - (Silverlock)

This country was built on the hope that one day we could all own a Batcave.
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