Yo, warmachine...Run! Get out while you can!

Can't find it here [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4748717.stm|http://news.bbc.co.u...itics/4748717.stm]

New grounds for deporting and excluding people from the UK - including fostering hatred or, advocating and justifying violence to further beliefs. The powers will cover statements already on record. Consultation on the plans will finish this month

Agreements with other countries, such as Jordan, to ensure people can be deported to their nations of origin without being tortured or ill-treated

Amend human rights laws, if necessary, to prevent legal obstacles to new deportation rules

Home secretary automatically to consider deporting any foreigner involved in listed extremist bookshops, centres, organisations and websites

Make justifying or glorifying terrorism anywhere an offence

Automatically refuse asylum to anyone with anything to do with terrorism anywhere

Consult on setting a maximum time limit for extraditions to other countries - Mr Blair said it was unacceptable that Rashid Ramda, wanted for the Paris Metro bombing 10 years ago, was still in the UK

Examine calls for police to be able to hold terror suspects for longer before pressing charges

Use more control orders against British terror suspects, who cannot be deported

Increase the number of special judges hearing terror cases

Review the threshold for gaining British citizenship and establish, with the Muslim community, a commission to advise how to better integrate parts of the community "presently inadequately integrated"

Create a list of foreign preachers who will be kept out of the UK and consult on creating new powers to close places of worship used to foment extremism

Use biometric visas for those from designated countries and compiling a database so people whose views or activities pose a threat to UK security can be kept out of the country. They could only appeal against the decision from overseas.

...between you Brits and we Yanks. A few whack-jobs notwithstanding, if you were to even suggest a bill that would threaten jail time or deportation for simply visiting a goventment-proscribed website, ordering government-proscribed reading materilas, or publicly arguing that the govenrment needs to be overthrown, the vast majority of our populace here would rise up against it (even BeeP, I wot!). Yet, you proclaim that you're "[...] kind of sympathetic to the idea anyway." Perhaps your lack of a Bill of Rights has inured you from this sort of thing, but around here, them's fightin' words! Is it any accident that the most repressive regime in this country's history has yet to even dare to suggest such draconian measures?^[1] Is it any accident that the most conservative Supreme Court in over a century ruled 9-0 during the ~~Rove~~Bush "administration" that burning the flag was protected free speech? I think not!

Maybe I have my tinfoil hat on a little too tight today. but this shit is exactly what the Islamist fundamentalists (hell, any fundamentalists, including those of yours who call themselves Tories and those of ours who call themselves Republicans) want. This is a victory for them, and in effect validates their "ends justifies the means" philosophy on everything. When one of the great democracies remaining in the world stoops to this level, it's game over. They win. Period. Take your ball and bat and go home!

And I don't want them to win, dammit! Do you? (This is not a rhetorical question, based on the sentiments in your post....)

^[1]Yes, I know...the tinfoil hat part of me fully understands that this is quite possibly a ploy by the ~~Rove~~Bush "administration" to see how this plays in Peoria, and if the collective response is a heavy sigh followed by "Oh, well", then we might just see a similar measure floated here. (Which would of course lend the lie (again?) to the "considering foreign laws in the US" hew and cry when Souter and Kennedy did it....)

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #217,665 by jb4 8/5/05 9:29:54 AM 8/5/05 1:56:37 PM Reply	Yo, warmachine...Run! Get out while you can! Your boy Tony is [link\|http://www.suntimes.com/output/terror/blair05.html\|on the march] LONDON-- Prime Minister Tony Blair on Friday announced new deportation measures against people who foster hatred and advocate violence following last month's transportation attacks that killed 52 people and four suspected suicide bombers. Clerics who preach hate and Web sites or book shops that sponsor violence would be targeted. Foreign nationals could be deported under the new measures. Blair said his government was prepared to amend human rights legislation if necessary if legal challenges arose from the new deportation measures. Britain's ability to deport foreign nationals has been hampered by human rights legislation. As a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, Britain is not allowed to deport people to a country where they may face torture or death. "Let no one be in any doubt that the rules of the games are changing," Blair said, promising to crack down on extremists blamed for radicalizing pockets of Muslim youth. [emphasis added] [...] I guess any chance of a British Bill of Rights has sorta gone by the wayside, wouldn't you say? Score a a small but important victory for the extremists (both foreign and domestic). [edit: More details [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4747573.stm\|here, from the Beeb]] jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 Aug. 5, 2005, 01:56:37 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #217,680 by warmachine 8/5/05 10:03:35 AM Reply	Doesn't quite meet the criteria Tampering with human rights bills is always a bad sign but you have to be a conspiracy nutter to be caught by this one. It doesn't have the widespread and structural effect such as allowing corporations to bulldoze private property or inserting Intelligent Design Theory into science classes. Doesn't quite meet the criteria for a 'Run!' rant. I'm kind of sympathetic to the idea anyway. Those who say the only worthwhile religion (their version) is being undermined by Zionist conspiracies, with further implications, are not good for democracy. The little darlings playing in the sandpit have to play nice with each other. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #217,696 by jb4 8/5/05 10:23:38 AM Reply	But Matt... Those who say the only worthwhile religion (their version) is being undermined by Zionist conspiracies, with further implications, are not good for democracy. Well, you've just described the Southern Baptists, and every evangelical Protestant sect ever invented by mankind (and I do mean mankind, because no female in her right mind would ever come up with the sort of whack-jobbery that some of these "religions" profess to be the "Whord of Ghod"). jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,701 by warmachine 8/5/05 10:35:43 AM Reply	They'll be denied visas too, then Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #217,907 by ben_tilly 8/6/05 11:09:03 PM Reply	Something that you're missing... No intelligent woman might come up with some of those theories. But no intelligent man would either! Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #218,022 by jb4 8/7/05 7:32:31 PM Reply	Point taken! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,714 by boxley 8/5/05 12:43:05 PM Reply	this part bothers me [link\|http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2172CD82-350D-4572-AD04-8689CC75F3CD.htm\|http://english.aljaz...-8689CC75F3CD.htm] Additionally, powers would be extended allowing the government to strip citizenship from people with British or dual nationality who "act in a way that is contrary to the interest of this country", Blair said. perhaps a naturalized citizen, but a born in? Not quite right in my opinion. thanx, bill Just call me Mr. Lynch \\ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #217,729 by jb4 8/5/05 2:04:44 PM Reply	I suppose organized protest will be next? Additionally, powers would be extended allowing the government to strip citizenship from people with British or dual nationality who "act in a way that is contrary to the interest of this country", Blair said. Well now, according to some (including, but by no means limited to, those who spell their last names like B-U-S-H, R-O-V-E, N-I-X-O-N, or B-I-N-L-A-D-E-N), people who organize protests against the govenment or it policies are "act[ing] in a way that is contrary to the interests of [their] country". If this goes through without some very necessary changes, its game over: The "wah ahn terrah" has been lost, the terrorist win. Matt...Run! Get out while you can (or before your forced to...)! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,775 by warmachine 8/5/05 4:48:16 PM Reply	I think Al-Jazeera are fabricating that part Can't find it here [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4748717.stm\|http://news.bbc.co.u...itics/4748717.stm] New grounds for deporting and excluding people from the UK - including fostering hatred or, advocating and justifying violence to further beliefs. The powers will cover statements already on record. Consultation on the plans will finish this month Agreements with other countries, such as Jordan, to ensure people can be deported to their nations of origin without being tortured or ill-treated Amend human rights laws, if necessary, to prevent legal obstacles to new deportation rules Home secretary automatically to consider deporting any foreigner involved in listed extremist bookshops, centres, organisations and websites Make justifying or glorifying terrorism anywhere an offence Automatically refuse asylum to anyone with anything to do with terrorism anywhere Consult on setting a maximum time limit for extraditions to other countries - Mr Blair said it was unacceptable that Rashid Ramda, wanted for the Paris Metro bombing 10 years ago, was still in the UK Examine calls for police to be able to hold terror suspects for longer before pressing charges Use more control orders against British terror suspects, who cannot be deported Increase the number of special judges hearing terror cases Review the threshold for gaining British citizenship and establish, with the Muslim community, a commission to advise how to better integrate parts of the community "presently inadequately integrated" Create a list of foreign preachers who will be kept out of the UK and consult on creating new powers to close places of worship used to foment extremism Use biometric visas for those from designated countries and compiling a database so people whose views or activities pose a threat to UK security can be kept out of the country. They could only appeal against the decision from overseas. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #218,023 by jb4 8/7/05 7:43:25 PM Reply	If al-Jazzera is make this up, they've got company For example: [link\|http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/1718087.php\|Indymedia] (you know, the guys whose servers were confiscated at the behest of the FBI and the Italian equivalent?) [link\|http://www.thedailystar.net/2005/08/06/d5080601096.htm\|The Daily Star] [link\|http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_6-8-2005_pg1_1\|The Daily Times (of Pakistan)] To be fair, I'm not sure who all of these outfits are, but I do know Indymedia, and they tend not to just release others' news releases as their own. And the Daily Star (one or your tabloids?) uses the BBC as their byline. jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #218,024 by jb4 8/7/05 7:47:43 PM Reply	Oooohh! Ex post facto laws! New grounds for deporting and excluding people from the UK - including fostering hatred or, advocating and justifying violence to further beliefs. The powers will cover statements already on record. Consultation on the plans will finish this month [emphases added] Just what a bellwether of democracy needs...a law to to put someone in jeopardy for engaging in perfectly legal activity at the time said activity commenced. It's no wonder ex post facto laws are unconstitutional here in the Colonies. King George (and Karl Rove) would be proud! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #218,028 by warmachine 8/7/05 8:00:26 PM Reply	Good point Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #218,025 by jb4 8/7/05 7:51:00 PM Reply	ObNationalIdentityCard Pitch: Warning! Here it comes... Use biometric visas for those from designated countries and compiling a database so people whose views or activities pose a threat to UK security can be kept out of the country. They could only appeal against the decision from overseas. You didn't think they could pass up that opportunity, now did you? Yup, biometric identity documents gonna saaaave the Whorld, by crackee! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,737 by jb4 8/5/05 2:28:12 PM Reply	I think your post defines one of the differences... ...between you Brits and we Yanks. A few whack-jobs notwithstanding, if you were to even suggest a bill that would threaten jail time or deportation for simply visiting a goventment-proscribed website, ordering government-proscribed reading materilas, or publicly arguing that the govenrment needs to be overthrown, the vast majority of our populace here would rise up against it (even BeeP, I wot!). Yet, you proclaim that you're "[...] kind of sympathetic to the idea anyway." Perhaps your lack of a Bill of Rights has inured you from this sort of thing, but around here, them's fightin' words! Is it any accident that the most repressive regime in this country's history has yet to even dare to suggest such draconian measures?^[1] Is it any accident that the most conservative Supreme Court in over a century ruled 9-0 during the ~~Rove~~Bush "administration" that burning the flag was protected free speech? I think not! Maybe I have my tinfoil hat on a little too tight today. but this shit is exactly what the Islamist fundamentalists (hell, any fundamentalists, including those of yours who call themselves Tories and those of ours who call themselves Republicans) want. This is a victory for them, and in effect validates their "ends justifies the means" philosophy on everything. When one of the great democracies remaining in the world stoops to this level, it's game over. They win. Period. Take your ball and bat and go home! And I don't want them to win, dammit! Do you? (This is not a rhetorical question, based on the sentiments in your post....) ^[1]Yes, I know...the tinfoil hat part of me fully understands that this is quite possibly a ploy by the ~~Rove~~Bush "administration" to see how this plays in Peoria, and if the collective response is a heavy sigh followed by "Oh, well", then we might just see a similar measure floated here. (Which would of course lend the lie (again?) to the "considering foreign laws in the US" hew and cry when Souter and Kennedy did it....) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,779 by warmachine 8/5/05 5:25:53 PM Reply	Not quite The proposals are more to do with foreigners who are invovled with the web sites or books. Though you still have a point. Phrases such as "Agreements with other countries, such as Jordan, to ensure people can be deported to their nations of origin without being tortured or ill-treated" are yet more Labour spin. And when I see "consult on creating new powers to close places of worship used to foment extremism", I'm angry. This will make it worse. Get the moderates to kick them out on the pavement, like Abu Hamza. Fix the economic problems in Bradford, like fixing the Brixton riots. Not quite worthy of 'Run!' rant but too close. Maybe I ought to study Canada as a candidate plan. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #217,789 by boxley 8/5/05 5:55:10 PM Reply	Well if you ar white and nosy. canada might be good Just call me Mr. Lynch \\ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #217,739 by tuberculosis 8/5/05 2:31:26 PM Reply	Sounds pointless Bombers were locally born UK citizens. To where would one deport them? Misdirection this is. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #217,747 by jb4 8/5/05 2:40:42 PM Reply	ObYellowSubmarineRef: Argentina? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #217,795 by Ashton 8/5/05 6:11:12 PM Reply	Quit stealin my lines or.. I'll be all over ya like dumb on Dan Quayle. (to coin a phrase)
Post #218,026 by jb4 8/7/05 7:53:45 PM Reply	Your lines? YOUR lines?!? Dude, I been tracking and quoting Yellow Submarine longe before there was Clearlight Labs! Your Lines? Feh! in other words: ;-\ufffd jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #218,042 by Ashton 8/7/05 9:35:20 PM Reply	Thou sayest.. fwiw, but I'm speaking of Our turf - \|me Owns Blue Meanies, and besides - we ackshully Did leave the theatre a singin; First-run. cha cha cha Do a search on Argentina in the subject line, omitting fussball and the Falklands, natch.. :-0 Grovel in any way that seems unfitting.
Post #217,841 by jake123 8/6/05 11:27:55 AM Reply	It's true, the West's leadership sucks Blair just came out of the "I'm a fascist" closet, afaict. The terrorists are doing a great job at getting us to destroy ourselves; I think they've made a very accurate assessment of the quality of our current crop of elites and are doing a bang-up job at getting them to dance like marionettes. I can only hope that this passes before I'm no longer able to take care of my kids, so that they won't end up living in a dystopic nightmare. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #217,863 by Ashton 8/6/05 6:02:10 PM Reply	They've also out-Keynes'd the Econ-heads, just to rub it in (with the salt and brackish water.) What IS the ROI, to-date -- on that initial ~$500K 'investment in airplane commandeering'? Nearing say, 5 x 10⁶:1 ?? Ooh - do it re GNP, with These exponents. Precise planning; also perfect Symbolic-targetting. Check Tactics. Check. Execution efficiency. Check. Inducement of blubbering paralyzing-Fear. Check. Contribution towards long-term seppuku. Check, ie. - [What you said] Check. Check. Check. (It must have been Hell for any sentient Romans, too - seeing 500 Freight-laden carts on collision course at the center, with the drivers lighting candles to Astarte and shouting at each other.) A Grand Salaam?

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