I was careful

Post #215,696 by ben_tilly 7/19/05 10:56:00 PM Reply	I was careful The excerpt from pages 43-44 is exactly the incident that I was referring to. An Iraqi delegation went to Niger, apparently to try to buy yellowcake. That may not have been their goal, but it was the belief of the people they contacted in Niger. And this was reported by Wilson. That is, I've seen nobody (including Wilson) really questioning that Saddam Hussein was interested in breaching sanctions. (And why not? They weren't exactly his idea...) He just wasn't getting anywhere. In fact both the report of the UN inspectors beforehand, and the result of US army inspections afterwards strongly suggest that his capabilities were diminishing, not improving. (I've seen no indication that Saddam Hussein was fully informed of the true state of his reserves. But then again I haven't been paying much attention.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,704 by Simon_Jester 7/20/05 12:04:00 AM Reply	I'm not sure of your point... That is, I've seen nobody (including Wilson) really questioning that Saddam Hussein was interested in breaching sanctions. (And why not? They weren't exactly his idea...) He just wasn't getting anywhere. In fact both the report of the UN inspectors beforehand, and the result of US army inspections afterwards strongly suggest that his capabilities were diminishing, not improving. (I've seen no indication that Saddam Hussein was fully informed of the true state of his reserves. But then again I haven't been paying much attention.) No one I've seen, including Scott Ritter, has claimed that Hussein wasn't interested in breaching sanctions.
Post #215,707 by ben_tilly 7/20/05 12:31:47 AM Reply	My point is... In [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=215540\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=215540] you were saying that there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger, yet some people are trying to make it out that he was. Yet even administration critics like Wilson acknowledge that Saddam Hussein had the desire and seems to have made (admittedly feeble) attempts to satisfy it. Now I'll grant that people make more of this than they should. But I don't see there being good grounds to deny the assertion. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,749 by Simon_Jester 7/20/05 11:41:59 AM Reply	okay...reading that again... In [link\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=215540\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=215540] [*] you were saying that there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger, yet some people are trying to make it out that he was. Did I say that? Under that post? Now, admittedly, hindsight is 20/20....but to be honest, do we really any evidence of Iraq trying to buy yellowcake? From any country? (Before you mention Wilson again, I will point out that under Rovian rules, the Iraqi delegation never once mention yellowcake.) (I know, we give Rove far more "rights" than we give Iraq. But this isn't about law - I looking for that truly happened.) Of course, this is all hindsight. We had LOTS of evidence that Iraq was interested in buying yellowcake before the war. We have verbatium documents that an agreement had been reached. So I'm curious, who supplied those verbatium documents? How truthful were those documents? (And will anything happen to people who supplied possibly false documents in an attempt to get us in a war?)
Post #215,792 by ben_tilly 7/20/05 4:48:12 PM Reply	Well I read what you said that way Let me quote: As I read through the Senate's CIA report, I noticed that someone (or someones) were VERY interested in making it appear that Saddam was attempting to by Yellowcake from Niger. Those people are never identified. Their evidence is pretty much non-existant. And no one is talking about them. I take that to mean that you think there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger, but lots of people are trying to make it appear that he did. Now I don't know what you mean by "Rovian rules". However the summaries that I have read, including from Wilson, say that there is no question that Saddam Hussein wanted to start a nuclear program, and investigated options, including buying yellowcake from Niger. How strong is that evidence? I don't know and I don't want to take the time to form a solid opinion. However the fact that people who are interested, both those for and against this administration, accept that claim suggests to me that the evidence is good enough. It is probably circumstantial - after all Saddam wasn't trying to make this an easily documented - but if it satisfies CIA people who don't like the administration then I'm willing to provisionally accept it. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,834 by Simon_Jester 7/20/05 7:17:29 PM Reply	Ah, thank you...now I understand. I take that to mean that you think there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger, but lots of people are trying to make it appear that he did. My statement that this isn't much evidence is probably mispoken. There was LOTS of evidence before the war. (Someone claimed to have the text of a contract between Niger and Iraq). However, all of that evidence has evaporated. Poof. Gone. Now I don't know what you mean by "Rovian rules". However the summaries that I have read, including from Wilson, say that there is no question that Saddam Hussein wanted to start a nuclear program, and investigated options, including buying yellowcake from Niger. Grin. Rove (cough) never outted Plame because he never mentioned her by name. Likewise, the delegation never mentioned they wanted to buy Yellowcake. :-) How strong is that evidence? I don't know and I don't want to take the time to form a solid opinion. However the fact that people who are interested, both those for and against this administration, accept that claim suggests to me that the evidence is good enough. It is probably circumstantial - after all Saddam wasn't trying to make this an easily documented - but if it satisfies CIA people who don't like the administration then I'm willing to provisionally accept it. Agreement. The CIA takes a look at this stuff. And, btw, I'm not blasting the CIA (in this thread of posts at least), for coming to the conclusion that Iraq wanted WMD or to buy yellowcake. Any intelligence officer looking at the data that they received would have come to the same conclusion. My point was : is anyone looking at the data that our intelligence officers received? It sure looks like we (as a nation) were hornswaggled.
Post #215,904 by GBert 7/21/05 11:20:40 AM Reply	Hornswoggled? To quote a (woman) friend -- it's not date rape if she really needed it... Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for. You don't need George Bush for that.
Post #216,010 by Ashton 7/21/05 9:52:16 PM Reply	'Evidence' ??____Posit - The emotional underlying Truth of a series of under- mis- reported then spun events is apt to be mostly irrelevant to the tissue-of-'facts' (that we ever get near-to). (Or was that the blueprint for the Infinite Improbability gearbox)

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