Post #212,733
6/27/05 4:16:37 PM
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certainly they are well regulated, by members
the position that they can only be run by the centralized state government appears nowhere in the document in question.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #212,735
6/27/05 4:27:24 PM
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That's why they call themselves eg: Michigan Militia
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #212,751
6/27/05 5:53:53 PM
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That's a private (non-State Sanctioned) group.
Amendment 2 does not apply to them.
qed
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,760
6/27/05 6:10:42 PM
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Amendment 2 doesn't say "state sanctioned"
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #212,848
6/28/05 11:55:25 AM
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Amendment 2 concerns States' Rights.
Lunatics in the UP do not constitute the State of Michigan. HTH.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,852
6/28/05 12:39:05 PM
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Nope. Wrong again.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Note, that it is not "the right of the State". Not by any wild stretch of the imagination. To rationalise that requires redefinition of "people", "right", "militia", "keep", "bear" and "infringed".
Regardless of what you think. This amendment is clear and simple. If you don't like it, build a national referendum to change the Constitution. I'd wish you luck, but I find the goal of only permitting arms to government employees abhorrent.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #212,854
6/28/05 12:59:52 PM
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Nice try. It's *YOU* that needs an amendment.
Read the case law. Read the USSC's opinions (both liberal and conservative court opinions and rulings). The plain fact of the matter is that within the legal community, there is no controversy here. The amendment plainly give the states the right to arm their own militias.
Look, I'm not saying that private ownership is illegal - or even that there is no right to private ownership. I'm just saying, (as all courts have who have addressed the issue), amendment 2 does not apply to private ownership of firearms. You want an explicit Constitutional right to private ownership? Lobby for one. It currently does not exist.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,858
6/28/05 1:04:21 PM
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Any non-contorted reading of that sentence . . .
. . makes clear the people are to be armed so they are ready and able to participate in a militia. By this logic the people should be armed with weapons appropriate to a militia, which makes clear that the recently expired ban on assault rifles was, in fact, unconstitutional.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #212,861
6/28/05 1:07:33 PM
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No.
And the reason the decision was made the way it was is my point (and that of the rest of the legal community's) exactly. That ruling concerned "private ownership unrelated to the arming of a State's militia."
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,864
6/28/05 1:13:59 PM
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Also...
RPGs, battlefield nukes and artillery.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #212,874
6/28/05 1:24:52 PM
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Well, a case could be made . .
. . that classes of weapons unknown to the writers could be excluded, since they did not have the opportunity to exclude them. Artillery did exist and I see no reason to ban private ownership of artillery. It's kind of difficult to deploy, hard to conceal and expensive to operate so it's not quite the thing for a drive-by shooting.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #212,919
6/28/05 7:21:39 PM
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Re: Well, a case could be made . .
A recoilless rifle makes quite a mess and would sit nicely on the back of a truck.
If classes of weapons unknown to the writers are excluded, it's basically down to muskets, pikes and sabres.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #212,923
6/28/05 7:42:39 PM
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I think crew served weapons would not be in order
as an individual right to bear arms, you cant load aim and fire without assistants, doesnt make the cut.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #212,878
6/28/05 1:42:51 PM
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you can own artillery, and use it on special occasions
A few restrictions, the shell cannot be HE/WP etc, as that comes under different jurisdictions as they are labelled explosives but a regular Mortar, cannon etc is fine. Thats why a 16inch gun is fine, an RPG is not.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #212,882
6/28/05 2:07:35 PM
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My uncle has a "3 pounder".
[link|http://johnsmilitaryhistory.tripod.com/threepdr.html|E.g. Here]. That's not his, but that's what it looks like. It's a replica.
He's fired it at an artillery range.
He once said he could own a machine gun if he had the necessary "tax stamp".
YMMV.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #212,853
6/28/05 12:57:55 PM
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You're reaching.
The amendment's text is plain on the face of it. Your reading requires implications and redefinitions. Guess who loses?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #212,855
6/28/05 1:00:23 PM
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So, I, the ENTIRE legal community and the USSC are wrong.
But you and the NRA are right. Is that about it?
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,857
6/28/05 1:03:08 PM
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Entire Legal community? hardly
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #212,859
6/28/05 1:04:33 PM
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*blam* *VRRRROooooommmmm....*
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #212,862
6/28/05 1:08:02 PM
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Find a respected law journal that argues the NRA's position.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,869
6/28/05 1:20:51 PM
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Lawyers have a very obvious agenda.
An armed populace is dangerous to those who consider themselves the unquestioned and unquestionable (and very profitable) interpreters of law.
Despite this agenda they have not succeeded in disarming the populace because they don't have the legal grounds to do so.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #212,875
6/28/05 1:25:50 PM
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I never suggested they did.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,872
6/28/05 1:23:32 PM
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US Justice Department? Oh you said respected :-)
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #212,881
6/28/05 1:49:49 PM
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howabout the 1857 supreme court?
"It would give to persons of the negro race, ... the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, ... the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went." scott vs sandford. Sounds like no militia required. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #212,868
6/28/05 1:19:37 PM
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Miller was about *concealed* weapons.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #212,873
6/28/05 1:24:37 PM
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Transport of a sawed-off shotgun.
An indictment in the District Court Western District Arkansas, charged that Jack Miller and Frank Layton 'did unlawfully, knowingly, wilfully, and feloniously transport in interstate commerce from the town of Claremore in the State of Oklahoma to the town of Siloam Springs in the State of Arkansas a certain firearm, to-wit, a double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230, said defendants, at the time of so transporting said firearm in interstate commerce as aforesaid, not having registered said firearm as required by Section 1132d of Title 26, United States Code, 26 U.S.C.A. 1132d (Act of June 26, 1934, c. 757, Sec. 5, 48 Stat. 1237), and not having in their possession a stamp-affixed written order for said firearm as provided by Section 1132c, Title 26, United States Code, 26 U.S.C.A. 1132c (June 26, 1934, c. 757, Sec. 4, 48 Stat. 1237) and the regulations issued under authority of the said Act of Congress known as the 'National Firearms Act' approved June 26, 1934, contrary to the form of the statute in such case made and provided, and against the peace and dignity of the United States.' bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,880
6/28/05 1:48:56 PM
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Er, yes. A concealed weapon. Your point?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #212,883
6/28/05 2:09:06 PM
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And you'll notice
that the case was tried on Interstate Commerce rules and not state or individual rights. You are seriously stretching this ruling to try and make it apply where it does not. I don't necessarily fault you, as I'm sure whoever convinced you that it applied was very convincing.
Problem is, they (and you) are completely wrong.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #212,890
6/28/05 3:04:46 PM
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You, Scott and the NRA, right?
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,903
6/28/05 4:46:59 PM
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I'm not an NRA member.
Doesn't change the fact that I agree with the Constitutional guarantee to keep and bear arms and that your Miller precedent does not apply to or trump this Constitutional guarantee.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #212,907
6/28/05 5:17:11 PM
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See my last. You are, once again, wrong. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,940
6/28/05 10:11:57 PM
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Oh, I don't think so.
But you are welcome to your own opinion, even if it isn't shared by anyone else ;-)
Its a free country.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #212,886
6/28/05 2:21:11 PM
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apparently you can roll your own machine guns now
[link|http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=United+States+v.+Stewart&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1|http://www.answers.c...p=8&curtab=2222_1] An ATF search of Mr. Stewart's residence turned up thirty-one firearms, including five machineguns. The machineguns had been machined and assembled by Stewart. Stewart was charged and convicted of one count of felony possession of firearms in violation of 18 U.S.C. \ufffd 922(g)(1) and \ufffd 924(a)(2), and five counts of unlawful possession of a machinegun in violation of 18 U.S.C. \ufffd 922(o). Stewart appealed his conviction for unlawful possession of machineguns, claiming that 18 U.S.C. \ufffd 922(o) is an invalid exercise of Congress\ufffds commerce power and violates the Second Amendment.
Ninth Circuit Court Appeals opinion
Mr. Stewart won his case in an opinion rendered by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, on November 13th, 2003. The Department of Justice then request and received a stay, while they appealed the case to the Supreme Court of the United States. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that:
* "...a homemade machinegun may be part of a gun collection or may be crafted as a hobby. Or it may be used for illegal purposes. Whatever its intended use, without some evidence that it will be sold or transferred\ufffdand there is none here\ufffdits relationship to interstate commerce is highly attenuated."
* "...section 922(o) contains no jurisdictional element anchoring the prohibited activity to interstate commerce."
* "...there is no evidence that section 922(o) was enacted to regulate commercial aspects of the machinegun business. More likely, section 922(o) was intended to keep machineguns out of the hands of criminals\ufffdan admirable goal, but not a commercial one." should sink Miller nicely thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #212,891
6/28/05 3:08:37 PM
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Don't hold your breath.
It is ironic that I find myself feeling a great need to have a small arsenal at home these days. But I wouldn't be holding out any "reverse Miller/assault rifle/etc." hopes. Not with this junta. The last thing Bush, et al. want is an armed populace.
I'd bet the truth is that no one wants a case to go to the USSC that would definitively answer the question of whether Amendment 2 applies to private ownership for fear they would lose, no matter what their position is.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,892
6/28/05 3:17:47 PM
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You realize that was the intent, right?
It
is ironic that I find myself feeling a great need to have a small
arsenal at home these days. ... The last thing Bush, et al. want is an
armed populace. Could these two ideas be related, maybe? As in, the more the government wants to restrict private ownership of firearms, the more people come to think it's time to start stocking up. That was only, like, the WHOLE FREAKING POINT of the 2nd Ammendment. ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #212,898
6/28/05 3:53:40 PM
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Wrong. But it's pointless to argue this anymore. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #212,904
6/28/05 4:49:53 PM
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yes you are...and yes it is.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #212,908
6/28/05 5:32:42 PM
6/28/05 5:34:52 PM
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In many ways the whole thing is a Grand Diversion - << \ufffd >>-
How does one exterminate-via-legalese and its hoary pseudo-'science' this observation (?)
One does not truly desire to live in a culture in which there is a perceived common need to feel 'armed'.
(Whether to - -
mollify tykes-of-all ages' puerile idea of manhood?
protect from an imagined [Worst-of-all: Real] marauding neighbor[hood. now.]?
fend off jack-booted Fatherland forces of the present or future?
____? fill-in-blanks)
ie what IS the internal, cumulative, subtle, integrated effect, The COST! to one's psyche -- of carrying about this sensibility 24/7 -?-
edit tyop
How do I despise thee?
Let me count the ways;
I despise thee to the depth and breadth and height my soul can retch,
while feeling out of sight for the ends of being
and ideal gracelessness
...
(profuse apology, EBB)
Lessee...
house gun - (upstairs and down; also near door(s), kitchen, bedrooms, closets, garage, attic OR: just wear that holster - but bath == most vulnerable locale ... waterproof plastic)
car gun (under seat and glove box?)
yard gun - perhaps strategically-placed 'birdhouses' to protect from weather
cycle gun - hip? handlebars?
jogging gun - flap-flap-flap
boating gun - fore AND aft?
walking - cane gun?
trailer RV gun(s) - duplicate above
swimming gun - under codpiece Derringer?
diving gun - in the male bra?
undersea diving gun - [toughie]
spelunking gun - min. snags on crags and stalagmites
parachuting gun - higher/lower priority over altimeter?
school gun - bullying is approaching Pop #1, waay ahead of scholarship
school-bus gun - must be limited charge so as not to pierce driver's bulletproof enclosure
skating gun - 'well-balanced' grip
surfing gun - pop-up from surfboard?
shopping gun - cart clip-on?
while-sex gun - better place than under pillow?
sports gun - under bleacher Velcro? shoulder hoster under Kevlar 'parka'?
in-sport gun - bat-gun? bowling-ball grenade? tennis racquet handle barrel?
movie gun - matte black, of course
Noise-concert gun - sequined?
Music concert gun - silenced, of course
Lecture attendance gun - silencer AND engraved with a pithy ode
Doctor-visiting gun - sterile, of course - like this Whole Plan
{partial listing..}
to be continued..
as Innovation proceeds
and $$-savings expands
to cover
the Basic-36-pack,
just to get
started.
feeling.
Secure.
Edited by Ashton
June 28, 2005, 05:34:52 PM EDT
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Post #212,910
6/28/05 5:44:10 PM
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Not a toughie.
undersea diving gun - [toughie] They're called spear guns, they exist, and they're legal. For skewering fish. -YendorMike
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
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Post #212,916
6/28/05 6:59:07 PM
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heck, the only gun I ever need,,, is your gun
if crapaud is due to hit the occillator just be aware of what needs to be available. I am not so concerned as the neer do well who wishes to relive me of a few material goods, chances are I will be poorer but alive after such encounter as I am a disgruntled person who wishes to kill me. Then all the smiling head bobbing and agreeableness is for naught. Especially if that disgruntled person is acting under color of law. Shoot accurately and save the worries about the lawyer fees for later.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #213,004
6/29/05 10:08:52 AM
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I should have fled when I had the chance.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #213,013
6/29/05 10:33:15 AM
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Follow your pyramid.
[link|http://www.arches.uga.edu/~danni/maslow.htm|of needs that is.]
Where in there is the esoteric...the "higher brain function".
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #213,095
6/29/05 5:23:21 PM
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Maslow builds pyramids
Meher Baba (among others) just says,
[when asked to make it rilly-Simple for the attention-deficit folk, as want to order Enlightenment V.2a in a discounted 5-pack, from the web, on their cel, in the UAV, while watchin the Reality Cee Dee on the dash TFT; i-Pod-in-ear]
Don't worry;
Be happy
HTH
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Post #213,096
6/29/05 5:25:00 PM
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ROFL!
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #213,121
6/29/05 9:30:32 PM
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Point well ignored, I see.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #213,146
6/30/05 12:09:20 AM
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Hardly missed. Different priorities on my pyramid.
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Post #213,193
6/30/05 1:56:09 PM
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I keep forgetting
That human traits don't always apply '=p
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #213,201
6/30/05 4:14:55 PM
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I keep remembering
Manfred's comment to a priest who had arrived (unbidden, natch) as his pursuit of Astarte was nearing its denouement. Seeking to console the priest's lugubrious effusions / gently prod him to hie hence, saith Manfred -
Old man ... it is not.. so.. hard.. to die.
(Best.. if one insists upon having traits - that one select super-human ones, as the tawdry infra- ones are simply no fun at all.)
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