Post #206,392
5/7/05 9:35:20 AM
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Still Car Shopping - Freestyle, Volvo, 500, CR-V
The wife and I test drove the Honda CR-V last night. I think it has more pick up and go than the Ford Freestyle with 3.1 liter engine. The Honda CR-V is 2.4 liter.
Here are the choices now:
Ford Freestyle
Volvo S80 (used)
Maybe the Ford 500 ( which is supposed to be based on Volvo S80 platform )
Honda CR-V
Parameters:
Must hold 3 kids ( 9, 8, 4 ) comfortably, plus Mom and Dad.
Must have storage for 5 people.
Must get 20 mpg city and 26 or higher highway.
Must be reliable for 6-7 years, no major repairs, or maybe just 1.
Must have reasonable acceleration and passing capabilities.
No significant wind noise.
Must be safe ( 5 star crash test rating preferred)
The wife wants "toys", sunroof, leather, heated seats, power everything.
$350 or less car payment, total cost about $20,000 - 25,000
We will change the oil and do the maintenance regularly.
Interior should be cleanable, such that the seats and floor can be cleaned. (Picture a Slurpee spilling and you get the idea. Maybe we'll ban eating and drinking in the car for a year or two.)
I'm inclined toward the CR-V now, but my wife is thinking Volvo. She wants the XC-90, but it fails on the gas mileage, and they're "too new". There aren't any used ones on the market. She likes the S80, but is concerned that it's not a "family car".
I was originally leaning towards minivan again, but she wants an SUV. Maybe I should just blow the budget and get a new minivan and a small sports car for her. She wants a car with "style" and "image", Volvo, Jag, something like that. Do women have midlife crises?
She liked the Acura MDX too (used), but it fails the gas mileage test.
And I'm not paying $40,000 for a car.
Let me know if you think anything else might fit the bill.
Glen Austin
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Post #206,394
5/7/05 9:43:46 AM
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s/a year or two/evar and evar/
Seriously. A car is no place to be eating.
Peter
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Post #206,433
5/7/05 4:25:44 PM
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Uh. Yeah. Tell that to the toddler.
No screaming in the back seat >> clean floors.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #206,437
5/7/05 5:20:03 PM
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I reiterate my "pickup" suggestion.
That, or Fedex your toddler.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #206,407
5/7/05 12:42:23 PM
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have you looked at the magnum?
If it had a 3rd seat I would be driving one now.The 500 looks too boxy for my taste,
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #206,415
5/7/05 2:10:26 PM
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Why get a 500 when you can get the original?
I guess it does have 4WD for a reasonable price. But to my eye it looks just like a VW Passat.
You can get a 2.0 L TDI engine with the Passat and get 27/38 EPA MPG.
(There's also the new Jetta, but the TDI isn't available in it yet, and it's probably still a little smaller than the Passat.)
A GLS TDI Passat has a MSRP of $25,660 according to [link|http://www.vw.com/passat/|VW's web page] (not it's not very friendly to Mozilla and may require IE). They list the 500 SE (FWD) as having a MSRP of $22,165. A 4WD Passat is available too, but not with the TDI. You'll probably have an easier time getting a deal on the Ford, but you shouldn't need to pay list on the Passat either. (But finding a TDI Passat may be very difficult.)
There's a Passat wagon too.
Luck with the search!
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who is still very happy with his 2004 Jetta TDI Wagon.)
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Post #206,434
5/7/05 4:43:02 PM
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For comfort, versatility and reliability
Go with the minivan. Should last until kids start driving themselves.
Drove minivans for 10 years.
Again, I prefer the Dodge, but ymmv.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #206,444
5/7/05 5:53:49 PM
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Tell her she's wrong; WTF IS the S80, if not a fambly car?!?
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Post #206,468
5/8/05 1:22:26 AM
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The S80 is a "status car" to her...
Volvos are status cars here. In your part of Europe, they are probably about as common as a Ford or Chevy.
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Post #206,529
5/8/05 5:16:47 PM
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Well, I wasn't going to say she'd be wrong on *that*.
It's just that those are orthogonal dimensions to me; status- vs non-status-hood is one thing, fambly- vs non-fambly-ship another. Like, you gets your non-status fambly cars (Subaru wagon), your status fambly cars (Mercedes), your status non-fambly cars (Porsche), and your non-status non-fambly cars (Huyndai SCoupe)... Volvos have become "status" here too, nowadays -- just by dubious virtue of being so damn expensive. :-(
Oh, but you're still half right: Ford makes cars under that name in Europe, and they're cheaper than Volvos (which is Ford-owned nowadays, BTW), so Fords are actually more common than Volvos here in .fi... But European-built GM cars are called Opel (or Vauxhall when the steering wheel is on the wrong side, or SAAB when they're a bit more expensive), not Chevy, so Volvos are still a heckofalot more common than Chevys.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #206,553
5/8/05 8:43:58 PM
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You also see Volvo models in Europe not seen here.
Or at least did the last time I was in Sweden.
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #206,569
5/8/05 10:23:01 PM
5/8/05 10:25:40 PM
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For the wife fambly <> status
A family car gets trashed on a regular basis. A "status" car is always ready to drive another customer, detailed weekly.
The two are direct opposites. Of course, I was advising her today (on the CR-V) that it would look like the minivan in 3 months (which is completely trashed), if we don't do some major habit-surgery on the kids.
I think I'm taking Peter's advice. The kids are 9,8,4, so they can wait.
Nothing but water bottles, and even those must have lids. No gum, no candy, no food. Slurpees are definitely out, even with the summer heat coming in another month.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
May 8, 2005, 10:25:40 PM EDT
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Post #206,469
5/8/05 1:38:21 AM
5/8/05 1:40:12 AM
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Took the Honda CR-V Home
She picked out one of the CR-V SE Editions. They let us drive it home, but we still have to work out the financials.
Fully loaded about $25,600. Invoice is about $23,800.
Sunroof, leather, 6 CD changer, fog lamps, running boards, aluminum wheels, heated seats, and the highest trim level (normal CR-V's have the "plastic" fenders, this one doesn't). There are a couple of things it doesn't have. It is XM satellite capable, but the activation/upgrade is $500. It doesn't have the roof rack, but we can get it for about $300. My wife wanted a GPS system (not available on the CR-V), but I've just about convinced her to do the "personal" GPS, which is about $800 cheaper. Also, my Dell Axim is WiFi and Blue Tooth capable, so a blue tooth phone would give us [link|http://maps.yahoo.com|http://maps.yahoo.com]. (I guess I still need to know where I'm at, but if you have the map, you shouldn't get lost.)
Anything else, I think we can live without.
The big question is still the space. My wife still wants 3 rows, but it puts us into the 17/18 mpg world with a Pilot, MDX, Windstar, Town & Country, or something like it. I think the Odyssey and Sienna might get 20 mpg in town, but she wants the SUV. I think I have her convinced to try the CR-V for 3 years and if we're not happy with the space, then we'll get the big SUV when my Taurus gets to end of life. We'll know a little more about where gas will be then, too.
So, my prediction is that we'll be proud Honda Owners sometime next week.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
May 8, 2005, 01:40:12 AM EDT
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Post #206,478
5/8/05 8:55:31 AM
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Sounds nice. Luck!
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Post #206,573
5/8/05 10:56:03 PM
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I wasn't quick enough.
I was going to suggest looking at a Nissan* X-Trail. It's basically a Pulsar-derivative, but taller, less overhang and a 4WD gearbox. The handling and space is great and our rough estimates put the mileage at reasonable about 10 L/100 km. Which is almost what the sticker said. We haven't taken it for a "real" 4WD - the car mags say its 4WD capabilities are ordinary.
We drove a Pajero for 8 hours whilst away in Borneo. The X-Trail is much better.
Wade.
* I think Nissan are still badged Datsun on the states.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #206,574
5/8/05 11:02:17 PM
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It's been Nissan here since '83 or so.
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Post #206,578
5/9/05 12:47:30 AM
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Careful on the financials
That's a standard scam for car dealers, though more common for used cars. Did you give the old car as a trade-in?
Best case, they want you to really like the car -- and who isn't going to like a brand new car? -- then they'll screw you on the terms because you won't want to give it back. Worst case, they'll tell you your trade-in has already been sent to the auction, and if you give the new one back you'll get a "standard trade-in value" which will never be more than $3,000.
If you do get the worst case, go home call your state's Attorney General immediately. Don't give them the opportunity to "try to make it right". They have experience with this, and bigger lawyers than you have.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #206,743
5/10/05 3:44:20 AM
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Re: Careful on the financials
Yep, have a friend who is a Pro on dealing with 'dealers'. You start with finding out not merely the dealer 'price' before all the BS - but how much incentive $ (and other perks) are also attached. Then you decide, given current market and waiting til last couple days of the salesman's Quota Race ~~ how much Profit you think they will bite on. Say, 600-1600 for a rough ballpark on a $20ishK thing, depending on how hungry the local auto rowgues.
If you've properly gauged the local market - this will get it about as low as it goes; they WILL notice when/if you have accurately done your homework, especially if you use the right terms for the kickbacks (which I forget). Usually you just give bottom line, but sometimes mentioning one or two of the er derivations: establishes creds.
She has scored nicely re 4 new-car purchases (for others) via these calcs. Anyone who "can't be bothered" to do that much arithmetic - is their lawful psychological-prey.
(And beware the "special clear-coat wax Offer" and in many markets, at closing -- an overpriced and sometimes even harmful "special underseal / anti-rust cha cha cha". (Yes, there Are decent such, for those condemned to the Rust Belt, but these don't hardly ever emanate from the Dealer Pack))
Caveat emptor
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Post #206,757
5/10/05 7:32:30 AM
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"Dealer Holdback".
[link|http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/|Edmunds on Dealer Holdback].
The trouble with buying a car these days is that even if you know the holdback and the incentives and ..., you still don't really know what the dealer is paying for the car, nor what their bottom-line price is. How much of their "advertising fee" is legitimate? How much of the "paperwork fee"? And there's always the issue of how they screw around with trade-ins (if you have one).
It's good to be informed as much as possible, but there are still hidden transactions between the manufacturer and the dealer that affects the price.
Edmunds has a lot of information on stuff like this, but much of it has been hidden so that it looks like you have to request a quote from a dealer to get it. Use Google to drill down.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #206,858
5/10/05 10:01:58 PM
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Honda CR-V Back at the Dealer
We returned it Monday night. We negotiated about an hour and my wife didn't like the deal. The dealer took our first price, so we weren't low enough.
My wife was upset because we were still going to have to finance more than $24,000 with TTL and trade-in. So, we walked out.
They have tried call us about 10 times today. I talked to them once and they tried to tell me the bottom line was $500 higher than the sheet I didn't sign. Sorry, no deal.
I think we're done with this dealer. My wife wants to look at the Volvo and Freestyle one more time and we might try again at another dealer at the end of the month. There are lots of Honda dealers around here.
Also, they didn't want me "shop the deal", but I don't understand why that is bad for me. It's bad for them, but I really want to know what the best price someone can make is.
Also, my work performance review is end of month. I should get some kind of raise in late May / early June. Also, we need to pay my car off.
So, the dealers can wait another month, or two, or six. Both cars are still running.
Glen Austin
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Post #206,861
5/10/05 10:14:56 PM
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Ya done good.
If you don't feel good about a purchase like that, you have to walk away. Car (and other) salesmen have to learn that they lose more sales by bullying than they do by making customers feel like they were treated well. They won't learn that lesson unless mistreated people walk away.
Luck with the search!
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #206,862
5/10/05 10:16:27 PM
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You should buy the thing over the phone
from the leasing office.
Why subject yourself to all that pressure? Car sales people have "games". I've seen them all. They are now classics, they still run them, and they often still work.
Like the old "holy cow we gotta hurry on the paperwork, my buddy has another buyer down the hall trying to buy your car and we have to beat him to it. That's the only one we have at that price point because of a special arrangement with the factory".
Or "this offer is only good today".
Or "man my boss is gonna kill me when he finds out I did this". Often done in pairs with a white hat black hat couple.
Other tips - get outside financing - they mark theirs up.
This is a worthwhile investment : [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312980744/amzna9-1-20/ref=nosim/102-1377767-4883307?dev-t=D26XECQVNV6NDQ%26camp=2025%26link_code=xm2|http://www.amazon.co...5%26link_code=xm2]
It will tell you the "lingo" and provide tips for buying through the leasing office - where things are much less of a circus and you cut out the salesmen. Hey, its only six bucks and could save you a bunch of anxiety.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #206,865
5/10/05 10:22:48 PM
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when talking money with a car dealer
I never have anything but a drivers license with me, no checks, no credit cards no nothin, so If they want to make the deal they need to overcome that. When I bought the vn I went to the different dealers with the same "type" of car, asked them to provide bottom dollar quotes, I put 5k down and pay sales and all fees and what was the total dollar amount to be financed. It came down to the difference in warranty between ford and chrysler (the chrysler warranty was longer but I could pay extra and get the same coverage for the ford for the same amount) they did try the addon scam after I agreed to the deal, I said nope deal only, kiss my ass or I leave. Either they want to sell cars or they dont.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #207,023
5/11/05 10:36:11 PM
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Freestyle
We test drove the Ford Freestyle tonight. She likes the Freestyle, and it's got more "kid" room, so we'll probably end up with it.
I like the Honda better, but this time we're replacing her minivan, so it probably makes more sense to replace it with a larger car than the CR-V.
I liked the CR-V so much that I'll probably get one when it's time to replace my car. But right now, it's time to do hers.
Glen Austin
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