Post #202,768
4/10/05 11:44:58 PM
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Debian Sarge server - delivered and running.
Today I replaced the backup server at one of my client sites with a new Debian Sarge server and made it the primary server (for as long as it takes to build a new primary). The server mainly serves Samba, handles 3 serial printers and does backup functions (secondary copies all Samba shares from the main server at night, then the main server backs up to tape, then certain critical directories are backed up to Zip 250 disk (yes, the client is paranoid)).
Athlon 3000+ with LSI SCSI RAID (Seagate 15,000 rpm drives - not that I'm particularly fond of Seagate, but SCSI drives are in very short supply right now) DDS3 SCSI tape backup (on separate SCSI controller) and a meager 250-Megs of RAM because it probably doesn't need another 250-Meg of disk buffers on top the 150-Megs it has now and the 64-Megs on the RAID controller.
The only hitch was when the new server wasn't able to mount the NFS share on the main server to copy files. This produced the absolutely clear and definitive message "mount RPC PROGRAM NOT REGISTERED". Ummmm, yeah. This was resolved when I remembered the new backup server had a different IP address than the old backup server and it wasn't listed in the hosts.allow file. Kudos for error messages less interpretable than Microsoft's - a difficult task indeed! Yes, I know it's not Debian's fault.
All it took was about 80 hours of work to get the hardware and software to talk to each other sufficiently to install, recompile the kernel a few times, add SCSI drivers not included with Linux and writing a 32 page manual on how I did it so I can do it again when I build a new main server (and hopefully other servers before Sarge becomes hopelessly obsolete).
In the same time frame I built a somewhat more sophisticated Windows 2000 server (dual Xeons and dual hot-swap power supplies, RAID, etc.) where getting to the same place took about 3 hours. You can draw your own conclusions.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #202,773
4/10/05 11:56:24 PM
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Compare your history with Sarge v Win2k.
But, yeah, this Linux stuff isn't as easy as it should be.
On the bright side, you're now much more valuable as a Linux VAR.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #202,776
4/11/05 12:13:58 AM
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Yeah, I've had a few run-ins with W2K - but more with . . .
. . Exchange Server. One of the most fun ones was - when you set up a new mail account in Exchange 5.5 you get a mailbox and all that good stuff. With Exchange 2003 it tells you everything went fine - but no mailbox! You have to actually send the account some mail before the mailbox appears in the database. Boy did that one cost me some time.
Things were made a bit worse by the fact that my one active Exchange client decided they wanted to use a consultant more attuned to larger clients. This consultant had them buy a lot of expensive hardware, put in Exchange 2003 (they had Exchange 5.5) and converted their network half ways to Active Directory and said he was done. Then things fell apart enough that they called me back in to deal with it. Ugggg.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #202,783
4/11/05 12:43:46 AM
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*does a happy dance*
You have no idea how glad I am to be out of IT.
No, wait. You probably have plenty of idea :-)
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #202,778
4/11/05 12:16:49 AM
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Conclusion drawn
You have more Windows experience and expertise.
Do you think that it would take 80 hours to do this job again?
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #202,780
4/11/05 12:30:03 AM
4/11/05 12:34:06 AM
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Wrong conclusion . .
I've got a lot more experience with Linux than with Windows NT/2000. I've been doing Linux servers since at least 1997 and it's been like this every time I move from one distribution to another or one kernel rev to another or the hardware changes substantially. This effort was not at all unexpected.
The next one? Of course not - what do you think I wrote that 32-page (11 point) manual for? My health? The next Sarge install won't be much more difficult than the mentioned W2K one - until Sarge is seriously revised (I've already started the 2.6 kernel version manual) or becomes obsolete.
The Sarge manual was completely rewritten from the Debian Woody one which was mostly rewritten from the Caldera 2.4 one which was mostly rewritten from the Caldera 2.3 one which was revised from the Caldera 2.2 one which was rewritten from the Caldera 1.3 one.
Oh, yes, and I've got a Red Hat Enterprise ES manual to write in a month or so when I move a client from RH7 to ES.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #202,807
4/11/05 2:45:37 AM
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My conclusion
You spent a lot of time and effort making sure the Linux box is exactly how you want it. You accept that you could spend all the time in the world and wouldn't be able to make Windows much better than the default install.
Different people will interpret that second line different ways.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #202,848
4/11/05 10:52:42 AM
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I understand your points, Completely.
My only thing, is that there are ways to install Debian on a machine that completely departs from Normal. This is why some many other distributions are being based on Debian.
Off hand, I can think of 4 ways to install Debian, with out the new installer. Three ways with the New Installer and CD Image.
There isn't another distribution I can think of that (unless based on Debian) can be installed so many different ways, yet still come out with the same result.
To me, writing down everything I did, works. I guess, being immersed in doing everything the hard way sometimes gives you a different perspective. I like the hard way of doing things most times. It gives me a more internal view of the machine, the view, the goings-on.
I guess, being a hardware/software consultant, like yourself, I can see making it repeatable is essential. To me, it is always repeatable for me. Any of the seven ways it can be done, give me repeatable (read as Identical) setups. It is probably unrealistic for me to assume others can do it, but to know things are repeatable for others is a nice thing.
I do things differently than most, if you couldn't tell.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #202,850
4/11/05 11:00:54 AM
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I am not accusing Debian of being . . .
. . more obtuse than other distributions - it's not. I've been through this same learning curve with every distrubution I've used.
Linux is very expensive to deploy the first time and you have to deploy it pretty much identically enough times to realize economies.
Of course, to the enthusiast it's a whole different story.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #202,854
4/11/05 11:23:43 AM
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Gee, thanks...
So I am classed as an Enthusiast.
Geez Grygus, don't expect me, the lowly Linux Enthusiast, to be able to help with those Enterprise problems you are having from time to time...
</jokeson>
No, really, I have done things some people only dream of doing with Linux. I can see your point, repeatability. It is the utmost import.
I can achieve repeatability in many ways, I can get to the same machine setup exactly, using pretty much any of the seven ways.
Not doubting any of your ability or prowess, I'd bet I could have done your machine without having to reboot but one time, especially since you needed to have persnickety drivers. I'd have done the whole thing in a chroot environment. Then reboot into Debian's baseconfig.
Now, documentation... umm, that is what a secretary is for. (yeah I know, shutup already)
I know, I really should document my stuff, but damn, I am waiting for that neural interface I can just download it to the 'puter.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #202,869
4/11/05 12:30:48 PM
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The folkertnet--I'd buy one. ;)
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