Post #201,073
3/29/05 11:25:57 AM
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The real question
is this a war? If not, what is it?
My personal take on this the whole time is that this is properly approached as organised crime. The techniques of dealing with crime will go a lot further to solving the problem, and using those techniques (and therefore not bombing the shit out of literally millions of people who had nothing to do with the original actions) will also work a lot better at shrinking the resource base for the criminal organisations.
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Post #201,077
3/29/05 11:37:13 AM
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There are two questions here
"Is it a war?"
"How is it properly approached?"
The answers are largely independent.
For the first question, it takes two to have war, and it also takes two to not have it. Bin Laden repeatedly pronounced himself at war, and we really should listen to him.
The second question is currently answered your way by the majority of people in the West. It goes to the heart of the problem. We are not in the war mood. We attempt (or at least US government attempts) to make motions of war, without the popular support that the war needs.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,080
3/29/05 11:42:44 AM
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And Bin Laden is, of course, why we have taken over Iraq.
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] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #201,081
3/29/05 11:44:31 AM
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No, we did it for oil.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,086
3/29/05 11:53:45 AM
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Bin Laden can say what he likes.
Only nation states can go to war.
Peter
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Post #201,089
3/29/05 11:57:12 AM
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You can say what you like.
In the end, neither guns nor nation-states kill people. People kill people.
Two questions for you: Is Chechnia a nation-state? And, how do you think nation-states begin?
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,093
3/29/05 12:01:52 PM
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What's that got to do with the price of cheese?
Peter
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Post #201,094
3/29/05 12:05:26 PM
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Bin Laden has an ambition to be the Emir
of all Faithful. The first time the Faithful were united, the Arab nation was born. The second time, the Ottoman Empire.
As for Chechnia, if you ask Russia, there is no such nation-state. Russia has been having the third Chechen War for what, 10 years now?
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,097
3/29/05 12:09:42 PM
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The "Third Chechen War"
is not a war in the legal sense. There are many things that are called wars that are not wars in the legal sense. The Vietnam War and the Korean War would be two cases in point; neither of these were wars in the legal sense. In fact, the current war in Iraq is not a war in the legal sense; unless I missed it, Congress did not declare war on Iraq.
The controls and forms of war were put into place for a reason, after the Hundred Years War in Europe. These controls and forms were extended over the following centuries to put limits on what could be done. They are part of the West's claims to superiourity. We cannot abandon them without abandoning those claims.
The tragedy that is unfolding is that the west is becoming just like the people they condemn.
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Post #201,105
3/29/05 12:24:04 PM
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Grrr...
Yes, yes, yes. None of them are wars in legal sense. Does not matter. The enemy does not care what your law says. They just want to kill you, or push you out of their territory, or conquer yours, or do whatever it is they want to do, using all tools that war puts at their disposal. Repeat, they don't give a flying fuck whether _you_ agree that you are at war. _They_ are.
Vietnam War is a perfect example of my "one-sided" war. Only one side thought itself to be at war (well, American soldiers knew they were at war, but soldiers usually do anyway).
Yes, West should learn (again) to fight people who do not feel bound by the "controls" of war. And yes, we're likely to lose "the West's claims to superiourity". Has not happened yet, the current US administration norwithstanding. It may take a dirty bomb in Manhattan, with dead in tens or hundreds of thousands. When it happens, all that we hear about West's aggression will turn true. Targeting of civilians, chemical weapons, mass torture - you name it. The dark ages will come again.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,078
3/29/05 11:38:32 AM
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I think it's more like piracy.
Organized crime is usually more interested in having the freedom to do what they want economically. They don't care about politics as long as it doesn't interfere with that goal.
Piracy, e.g. the [link|http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/jefferson_papers/mtjprece.html|Barbary Pirates], preys on the economies of enemy states. They demand tribute in order to be left alone. They control territory. They often have the protection of governments.
It's not a perfect fit, but I think al Qaeda is closer to a pirate band than something like the Mafia. It took military action for the Barbary Pirates to end their attacks on the US.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #201,098
3/29/05 12:11:03 PM
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So, when do we see a letter of marque?
We have legal and useful ways of dealing with that sort of problem already; why aren't we using them?
My thinking is that the true goal is not the stated goal.
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Post #201,111
3/29/05 12:55:58 PM
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Dunno. That's a very good point.
Perhaps there would be arguments of whether a Letter of Marque could apply to anything other than private warships, or something.
On the other hand, I think Bush's policy is pretty transparent. And I don't think it's all about oil. Whether his actions further his stated policy goals is a very big question though. :-(
I can't say much more without recycling threads that have been beaten to death already.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #201,130
3/29/05 6:15:25 PM
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you have one, they are called contractors
they bounty hunt, provide security and carry arms in the field with full aproval of the american government.
thanx,
bill
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Post #201,131
3/29/05 6:18:25 PM
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Like the British privateers harrying the Spanish Main.
All done with the approval of Liz I.
Peter
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