Post #201,010
3/28/05 11:47:50 PM
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Death penalty by Colorado jury thrown out on appeal.
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/national/29bible.html?hp&ex=1112072400&en=bbb3fbd948923fc6&ei=5094&partner=homepage|NY Times]: DENVER, March 28 - In a sharply divided ruling, Colorado's highest court on Monday upheld a lower court's decision throwing out the sentence of a man who was given the death penalty after jurors consulted the Bible in reaching a verdict. The Bible, the court said, constituted an improper outside influence and a reliance on what the court called a "higher authority."
"The judicial system works very hard to emphasize the rarified, solemn and sequestered nature of jury deliberations," the majority said in a 3-to-2 decision by a panel of the Colorado Supreme Court. "Jurors must deliberate in that atmosphere without the aid or distraction of extraneous texts." A rather disturbing story. On the one hand, the jury was instructed to make a moral judgement. On the other hand, they're told not to be influenced by external influences like newspapers. I think that the punishment was correctly overturned - people should make judgements based on the law and the evidence presented and not turn to the Bible. But as the story points out, people could just cite the verses in their heads and there's no way around that. Hmmm. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #201,025
3/29/05 5:03:26 AM
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Run away! Get out while you can!
Didn't Western society go through an Age of Reason to get away from this 'higher authority' garbage? The US is supposed to be a brave, new world where everyone is glad of the separation between religion and state? The US left behind judging people on religion? Do these people not realise that this is a backward step? Why do they still wonder why no one else wishes to adopt the American Dream?
Get out now, before the place is called the Christian States of America, religious persecution starts and the borders are closed.
Matthew Greet
But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie. - Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
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Post #201,035
3/29/05 7:30:44 AM
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could be worse, some tart throwing a sword out of the water.
in america if not guilty ask for a judge, if guilty go for the jury, old saying over here. thanx, bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #201,026
3/29/05 5:24:54 AM
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Except they're wrong.
For the rape he should have to pay her father fifty shekels and marry her. In fact, let's just assume that he was obligated to marry her immediately after her rape. In which case he's allowed to kill her on the grounds she's not a virgin. Sure, he's supposed to use the blanket from their wedding night as proof, but he already knows she's not a virgin, so it's OK for him to kill her. \r\n\r\n Total Biblically correct punishment: fifty shekels.
--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird? \r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #201,038
3/29/05 7:39:39 AM
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You've got a point there... :-/
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Post #201,053
3/29/05 9:54:45 AM
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I wonder what they used the Bible for
The friggin NYT woun't let me in
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,057
3/29/05 10:01:17 AM
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Excerpts.
You need to sign up there... In the decision on Monday, the dissenting judges said the majority had confused the internal codes of right and wrong that juries are expected to possess in such weighty moral matters with the outside influences that are always to be avoided, like newspaper articles or television programs about the case. The jurors consulted Bibles, the minority said, not to look for facts or alternative legal interpretations, but for wisdom.
"The biblical passages the jurors discussed constituted either a part of the jurors' moral and religious precepts or their general knowledge, and thus were relevant to their court-sanctioned moral assessment," the minority wrote.
Legal experts said that Colorado was unusual in its language requiring jurors in capital felony cases to explicitly consult a moral compass. Most states that have restored the death penalty weave in a discussion of moral factors, lawyers said, along with the burden that jurors must decide whether aggravating factors outweigh mitigating factors in voting on execution.
"In Colorado it's a more distinct instruction," said Bob Grant, who was the prosecutor in the Harlan case. Mr. Grant said no decision had been made yet on whether to appeal to the United States Supreme Court.
Legal scholars say the connection between hard legal logic and the softer, deeper world of values is always present in jury rooms, whether acknowledged or not.
"The court says we're asking you to be moral men and women, to make a moral judgment of the right thing to do," said Thane Rosenbaum, a professor of law at Fordham University School of Law in New York City, and author of the book "The Myth of Moral Justice: Why Our Legal System Fails to Do What's Right" (HarperCollins, 2004). "But then we say the juror cheated because he brought in a book that forms the basis of his moral universe," Professor Rosenbaum said. "The thing is, he would have done it anyway, in his head."
Other legal experts say the Colorado decision touches on an issue that courts do not like to talk about: that jurors, under traditions dating to the days of English common law, can consider higher authority all they want, and can convict or acquit using whatever internal thoughts and discussions they consider appropriate. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #201,059
3/29/05 10:22:09 AM
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Well, as long as they did not try to actually
apply the "criminal code" in the Old Testament, it may not be too bad. I am rather surprised that people who care enough about the Bible to consider it on jury duty need to refer to the actual text. One would think that they have internalized the wizdom they care for.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,060
3/29/05 10:23:58 AM
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To show/prove to others.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #201,062
3/29/05 10:26:42 AM
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It's a bit too late to have theological discussion
when you are in the jury room. Act on your own frigging convictions and leave others to act on theirs.
On the other hand, as my friend who served a couple times puts it, "the jurors I served with were definitely not my peers, and I will endeavor to keep as far away from them as possible".
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,071
3/29/05 11:18:12 AM
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One interesting practice I've read about
is the practice of opening the bible to a random passage and looking for its relevance to the situation at hand. This was very common a couple of centuries ago, and still goes on today.
If they were doing that, then the verdict should be voided. Of course, whether that's the case can't really be known.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #201,075
3/29/05 11:32:58 AM
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Another practice I heard about
is the practice of wild speculation without facts in hand. In a courtroom, that's prone to render the verdict null and void :)
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #201,076
3/29/05 11:34:02 AM
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That's true
which is why I said "IF that's what they did." If they didn't, then tossing the verdict based on that is a crock. IMhO.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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