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New Re: I don't thnk I am on any particular "horse"
Yep, they are baby killers, just like my countries armed forces have been in the past. Some of my countrymen

WRT the shaking head constituting defiance: so, for that, he gets tortured to death? Nice to know what passes for norms of justice down there. Let's look at that again... he was chained up to hang by his arms from the ceiling, and then the soldier in question started pounding on his knee with a baton, and did so around thirty times. Just trying to hood him is against the law... and if there is any international law that can hold that name, it's the geneva conventions. Hanging him up from the ceiling goes past abuse and into torture territory all by itself, again according to the geneva conventions. Finally, bashing him repeatedly in the knee with what basically amounts to a baseball bat is torture by anybody's account. But since he was defiant, it's all OK... esp. since it wasn't being inflicted solely to cause pain, but more to correct his behaviour, a la your new Attorney General's paper about what does and doesn't constitute legal justifications for force that he wrote a couple of years back. According to the norms of justice espoused in that little exercise in post facto rationalisation, what this guy did isn't a crime at all.

The truly whacked out thing about this is that most Americans seem to be completely unaware of how badly these guys are dragging your country's name through the mud.

I hate to break the news to you Arkadiy, but the US military IS being used in JUST such a way, and has been for about three years. I might as well add that some elements of my country's armed forces are ALSO being used in JUST such a way, and in the same place, and for about the same amount of time... but at least that was pointed out then (front page coverage on the Globe and Mail, actually) and is revisited from time to time... but it still doesn't prevent the odium from attaching itself to my country's leaders as well. In fact, in some ways they're worse; they're not leading, they're just following along doing what they're told in this matter.

And you know what? I was here for Reagan, and Reagan was bad; just ask a Nicaraguan or a Guatemalan about Reagan, and take a look at how his administration stepped around your constitution's provisions limiting executive power. Reagan's administration created a lot of suffering, both in America (read about the CIA using the crack cocaine market in LA to fund their operations in Central America sometime) and abroad, but Bush is a LOT worse than Reagan ever was, not least because the legislative branch has completely abdicated their responsibilities in the interests of accruing ever greater rewards.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New God damn it!
I did say that the soldier snapped, not that he was right. It's a manslaughter, not a murder. Somebody who should not be dead is dead anyway. Got it?
--


And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?

-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein

Expand Edited by Arkadiy March 24, 2005, 05:33:56 PM EST
New He didn't snap.
If someone here had gone to the trouble to set it up the way this soldier did, he'd've been charged with first degree murder, with the hanging up of the victim used as evidence of forethought and planning. Furthermore, other witnesses have pointed out that knee strikes are a common form of punishment for the defiant in this place; the only difference here is one of degree, not kind.

Got it?

Look, I don't think you're a bad person Arkadiy. I do think you've got a blind spot. You know, when I read that Vice Adm. Church had published a number of documented detainees (60,000) and acknowledged a number of undocumented detainees (the current thinking in mainstream US print media seems to be estimating their numbers at around 10,000), I couldn't believe it. I mean, it really shook me. Have any of these people been charged with anything? Have any of these people encountered any practical limit to the power of the people who have taken them? I very much doubt it. That said, while I'm sure there are people cursing his name, I think Church in his way is trying to save the military, by pointing out the crimes that are being committed in the people's name. One of the very things that got the American Revolution going was the fact that the British were doing the EXACT SAME THING to the people in the colonies. I think Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, et al are spinning in their graves at ~400 RPM.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
     A (bad) day in war - (Arkadiy) - (13)
         You need to get off your horse - (jake123) - (12)
             I don't thnk I am on any particular "horse" - (Arkadiy) - (11)
                 Re: I don't thnk I am on any particular "horse" - (jake123) - (2)
                     God damn it! - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                         He didn't snap. - (jake123)
                 Dude, you living proof that Roger Daltry was right! - (jb4) - (7)
                     I did see it up close and personal the last time around - (Arkadiy) - (6)
                         :) -NT - (jake123)
                         Big fan of Putin and Russian Mafia, are you? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                             At this point, Putin is rapidly approaching the ideal - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                                 "For the sake of peace with Trotsky, ... " - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     No... Which episode are refering to? -NT - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                         "Latvia, & Lithuania are worth losing." That one ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)

I should have blown up.
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