Wow!

Post #195,918 by bionerd 2/22/05 10:07:56 AM Reply	Wow! I was going to stay out of this until I read and re-read your post. Being I mother, I was ready to fight you to the death over your words. If someone EVER touched one of my kids I would tear them apart. But then I got to thinking about trauma. I guess it all depends on how traumatized a kid feels after the molestation takes place. If the level of trauma is low, a kid will probably be okay. But if the level of trauma is high- say the perp threatened the child, the child felt a lot of guilt, the actual molestation was painful, the molestation occured over an extended period of time, or the perp overpowered the child.. then kid can become develop some pretty severe pathologies as they grow up. And the kid will likely become a molester in an attempt to deal with his/her pathologies. So it's not la dee friggin da. "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #195,921 by ben_tilly 2/22/05 10:46:46 AM Reply	You're wrong about something there And the kid will likely become a molester in an attempt to deal with his/her pathologies. Contrary to myth, most victims of child molestation do not grow up to become molesters. If you think about it, that doesn't make sense as a simple numbers game. Your average molester molests many dozens of children over a lifetime. (Recindivism among child abusers is particularly high because that's what interests them sexually, and our sex drives are very hard to deny.) If most of them went on to abuse, we'd shortly be overwhelmed by child abusers, and we're not. Of course I still disagree with Andrew about abuse - you're right that it causes a lot of problems for kids, particularly because of things that perpetrators do to keep from being caught. But relatively few victims actually go on to abuse. Regards, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,924 by inthane-chan 2/22/05 11:00:03 AM Reply	Agreed. My wife treats child victims of abuse. While these kids don't become the next Chester for the most part, they do have a tendancy to do much more poorly in school, have severe emotional problems, and drop out of school. The combination of issues tends to lead them down the path to become the next generation of teen moms, petty crooks, and violent offenders - they may not become child molesters, but they do have a tendancy to act on their sexual urges much more uncontrollably, leading to an increased tendancy towards rape. The worst part about this is the ones who are most vulnerable are the ones who are getting shafted the worst in Washington state's most recent cycle of budget cuts. The best time to head this stuff off is early on, before they get stuck in a class of behavior, and we're cutting child mental health services something fierce. This just guarantees an increase in the crime rate, and more funding for police services 10 years down the road - something the typical North American potbellied beersucker doesn't seem to grok worth a damn. "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
Post #195,941 by pwhysall 2/22/05 12:15:59 PM Reply	Question. Although I would agree with the contention that most victims of child sexual abuse do not go on to become abusers, is it the case that most abusers were in fact abused? Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #195,947 by bionerd 2/22/05 12:41:06 PM Reply	That was my point Well said. Not every abused kid is going to end up abusing others, but if the kid's psyche is messed up enough it's likely the child will continue the pattern. I've seen young abused children act out sexually because it's what they know and it's how they think the world works. It's very confusing for a child. If someone molests a child and tells the child they did it because they love the child, then how does the child learn to express love? Through inappropriate sexual acts. Or if the child felt powerless during the abuse, how does the child regain that lost power? By abusing others. "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #195,961 by ben_tilly 2/22/05 1:57:20 PM Reply	Self-fulfilling prophecy? Think about this from the perspective of an abused child. The message is that not only did you suffer, but now you're doomed to become a monster. If someone grows up believing that they are doomed to become what they most hate, that's a pretty big cross to bear. And I suspect that believing this message would make it harder to deal with the problems that result from abuse, and therefore would make the prediction more likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even if it doesn't become a self-fulfilling prophecy, it adds a huge burden to children. Particularly since it makes it hard to cope with things that happen to most people. For instance what man has not looked at a woman, thought she was attractive, and then realized that she's jail-bait? If you're fighting the belief that you're a child abuser in the making, this trivial event becomes a confirmation of your worst fears. How are you supposed to cope? I far prefer focussing on the fact that most abused children do not grow up into abusers. There really is hope, and knowledge that there is a way out bears the possibility of becoming a much better self-fulfilling prophecy. That doesn't mean that we should be Pollyannas (particularly when it comes to protecting our own kids!), but it does suggest a more measured response. This is even true in the case of children whose abuse pattern included secondary cases of abuse as children. I don't think that someone's actions at 12 when they don't understand what they are doing inevitably predict what they'll do at 24 when they hopefully do understand. Regards, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,958 by ben_tilly 2/22/05 1:39:51 PM Reply	I don't know the answer to that And it may be that nobody really does. It certainly seems plausible that the patterns that lead to abuse are set as a kid and then acted out as an adult. And certainly plenty of examples exist of people who did that. However it is also true that it is common for "normal" people in our society to oversexualize youth. This may have biological roots, certainly there is evidence that something has been selecting powerfully for neoteny in humans. Inthane mentioned the speculation at [link\|http://www.davidbrin.com/neotenyarticle1.html\|http://www.davidbrin...tenyarticle1.html], and that fits here. Further complicating any attempt to gather reliable statistics is false memory syndrome. Many people honestly believe themselves to have been abused that weren't. This does not minimize the fact that many believe themselves to have been abused that really were - abuse is depressingly common - but it does make statistics gathering harder. Particularly since the nature of how it arises makes people with false memory syndrome more likely to volunteer themselves than people who really were abused. However I know that some studies were done in the late 80's on abuse cases which were currently going on. (I was interested in this topic at that point since I was dating someone who had been through abuse.) My recollection says that most abusers were not related to the children that they abused. You were, for instance, far more likely to be abused by a stepfather than your real father. In the remaining cases where close relatives abused you, evidence suggested strongly that the abusing relatives were ones who had not participated significantly in your early child care. (This description certainly fit the case of interest to me at the time.) At least one study suggested that making serial abusers participate in early child care for further children lessened the odds that they would abuse. I don't know whether this evidence has stood the test of time. (I haven't kept track of research on the field since it no longer relates to my life...) However my thought at the time is that there seems to be a family/available dating material dichotomy in people. And participating in early childcare seems to trigger the "family" side of that. (Another line of evidence towards the basic idea - anecdotal reports say that unrelated children raised as one family in a kibutz do not wind up dating each other, even though the adults involved would have no objection.) All of which goes to say that, with no specific evidence, I lean towards the belief that becoming an abuser depends on a variety of factors of which growing up in an abusive family is only one, and possibly is not even the most important. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,960 by inthane-chan 2/22/05 1:53:55 PM Reply	Just wanted to point out... ...that you actually pointed out that article to me in the first place. :)
Post #195,934 by Andrew Grygus 2/22/05 11:47:03 AM Reply	Part of the trauma is because trauma is expected. I'm not saying that trauma isn't real and shouldn't be taken seriously under the current social norms - I just think the current norms are a little "abnormal", tending to hysteria. Of course, I don't at all object to hanging predatory molesters. It's the milder incidental things that seem so over-done. Disclaimer: I am not a child molester. I have, however, read plenty about other non-molesters who's lives have been destroyed by false accusations extracted from children under stressful interrogation - so I literally will have nothing to do with children. It's just comon sense. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #195,945 by bionerd 2/22/05 12:31:29 PM Reply	I thought about that, too. It all depends on what is taboo in your culture and what isnt. I think you brought up the ancient greeks- Men having sex with boys was part of their culture. It was accepted by society so there was no guilt and probably very little trauma. "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #195,956 by ben_tilly 2/22/05 1:19:51 PM Reply	Furthermore there was less sex than is believed In that culture, anal sex was something that one did with slaves. The encounters between adult men and boys apparently were seen as romantic, but not did not generally include certain activities. I still have trouble believing that the boys did not come out with what we'd consider emotional scars from the experience, but I'll readily believe that they came out with less scarring than a boy in our culture who had the same experience would be expected to have from it. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #196,009 by daemon 2/22/05 6:21:49 PM Reply	look at the british upper class for an example may you go in beauty
Post #196,011 by Andrew Grygus 2/22/05 6:32:18 PM Reply	Is that why a gay couple I used to know . . . . referred to their bed as "The playing fields of Eton"? [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #196,013 by daemon 2/22/05 7:02:22 PM Reply	exactemundo may you go in beauty
Post #196,171 by Ashton 2/24/05 3:58:47 AM Reply	Re: I thought about that, too. It all depends on what is taboo in your culture and what isnt. Thou sayest, as did Andrew. So say I. Damn.. this should be in Gothic Gaudy. In my view (of some decades more than the median age of this motley crewel) - that aspect transcends all the .. standard desperate or so often vicious responses to almost anything to do with sex and especially sex/children in the USA. It ALL depends upon the mindset of the child! Example from personal experience at ~ 9ish: Movie theatre. Guy maybe 25-35 in next seat (what does a 9 yo know about 'ages' of the ruling adult class?) Guy makes overtures, all unspecific. To me: this is a strange critter. Curious, though, natch (an uncurious kid is a kid already nagged into submission, ready for a life as a chartered accountant). Wants me to go with him to the john. Ah.. That kind of 'strange'? They have urinals there. He proceeds to use one. Hmmm.. his member is all red; clear what he's been doing a lot of. OK, curiosity satisfied. But in this case, the manipulatee becomes the manipulator. I may not yet have grokked the phrase, hit on, but I knew it when I saw it. So I said (so as to end any possibility of further attention) ~~ "Ummm, I noticed that usher looking at you. A lot." He was gone. Trauma? Fear and loathing? Tendency to take-the-cloth and learn to molest all the young Christians, during their inculcation into becoming Penitent Young Sinners / despising all their natural impulses? Nahhh. Just life experience. But then, I could not project that encounter into a 9 yo mindset - already circumsized for no reason at all [thus desensitizing the glans for life - with all sorts of Interesting side-effects one can read about], catechismized at say, age 5 == already told, Don't Touch That Dirty Thing! (androgynous, that chestnut - it's used on girls too, I've heard) and the rest of the Puritan programming process. I was spared that, and am forever grateful.. for the luck of drawing such a parent! I can guess about the demons though, via first-hand stories from the victims of Ashcroftian pecksniffery, and their self-induced suffering. But for the Murican tads not spared the dreariness of a death-obsessed religious overlay on all experience: most of those will forget to read the pithier parts of their Manual (like, Judge not lest ye.. and Vengeance is Mine, saith She) .. and I suppose that many of these shall naturally want to Kill The Bastards. (It's such a Murican response to any crisis. Indians earlier, then Gooks ... currently dead Iraqi men, women, children and donkeys. NK, Iran, Syria next?) Want neurotic adults? Simple: fuck with their minds about 'God'; make em Promise to Obey Her -- ages before they have the foggiest W.T.F. that supernatural stuff is all about; eons before they learn just how ill-informed were mummy n'daddy too. Teach 'em that, like AL Capp's Schmoos, They. Are. Born. Guilty. of A) Eating an apple [allegory Alert] == wanting to Know (the dimensions of their cage). B) Killing ~~Kenny~~ Gawd's Little Boy, JC. C) Enjoying any of their bodily functions very-much. Rest case. Too late to kill all the priests; they're now everywhere - even the White House War Room. Besides - the lawyers have all the reserved spots. After all, we are Materialists first; sanctimony always has to take second place to $ matters.. always. Luck with -your- kid. I sympathize with any parent, but especially with anyone doing it the 100% Murican way. Bet you'll be fine :-\ufffd The believer is happy. The doubter is wise. Hungarian proverb

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