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New From the "You can learn something from everyone" bin.
I never thought I would say a decent thing about Justice Scalia, but I just watched a segment of a discussion between him and Justice Breyer and he said something that simultaneously rang true and went a very long way to furthering my education about why he has made the almost indefensible decisions he has made.

The topic they were discussing (debating actually) was whether or not foreign law should be considered when rendering decisions. I'd never been able to figure out how Scalia got on the Court. I mean, the reasoning he used in his published opinions was almost exclusively idiotic. He writes like a uneducated hick incapable of following a modus ponens argument. On the show he said he never considers foreign law (except Old English law) in forming his opinion, that he didn't believe the Constitution was "a living document"; rather, the Court's objective today was to interpret law by the principles adopted when the Constitution was written. That wasn't new to me, I knew he was a literalist. But, Breyer had said that he thought law "emerged" from conversations. Breyer held that discussions amongst judges, lawyers and law students caused law to emerge. Further, he held that such conversations were important because it illuminated a "developing standard of decency" that should be a part of interpretting the Constitution.

Scalia taught me something with his response. He looked out at the crowd of attorneys, professors and law students and said, "Do you think you are representative of what the American people think is decent? Do you think you represent their values? Of course not. You are the tiny cream of this society." (That is almost a direct quote, he made gestures, whinces, etc. that are difficult to write, so a word or two I took some liberties with - but his meaning remains unchanged).

He's absolutely right, of course. I think the reason that I've been posting here for so many years is because I personally run into so few people who share my views on decency. In my normal life, I simply don't run into too many Simon_Jesters, Ashtons, jb4s, et al. The kind of person I normally run into is a marlowe. Why? Because Scalia is right. marlowe is representative of the commonly held view of decency in this country. With this in mind, Scalia's opinions make sense. They are idiotic because the views of the majority of Americans are idiotic and Scalia tries (and succeeds) in forming opinions consistent with the opinions of the majority.

Scalia said it was hubris for the cream to believe their view was superior to that of the masses. Breyer even yielded on this point. But why did he yield? Because he is supposed to believe in American democracy. And democracy means the tyranny (and stupidity) of the majority.

So, Antonin Scalia taught me to face the fact that I am not a "good American." I do not believe in American democracy. I want the law interpretted by Scalia's "cream." I want rule by an enlightened, educated, rational elite. I don't want what the bible-thumping, "Left Behind" reading, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson fans think is decent to become the standard for decency.

In the final analysis, the problem is not that we do not have representative government (i.e. democratically determined representation). The problem is that our current representation reflects too well the average American.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New Re: From the "You can learn something from everyone" bin.
So, Antonin Scalia taught me to face the fact that I am not a "good American." I do not believe in American democracy. I want the law interpretted by Scalia's "cream." I want rule by an enlightened, educated, rational elite. I don't want what the bible-thumping, "Left Behind" reading, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson fans think is decent to become the standard for decency.

In the final analysis, the problem is not that we do not have representative government (i.e. democratically determined representation). The problem is that our current representation reflects too well the average American.

That is true, up to a point. And I would rather have rule by left wing elitists then right wing fundamentalists. But in truth, I would rather avoid either extreme.

Personally, I think the biggest problem we have is the number of Americans that don't vote, for whatever reason. A large percent of these people think that their vote won't influence the system anyway, so why bother?

Studies and history have shown that the right wing is not nearly the majority they think they are. It is just that they are the loudest group, quick to proclaim that their offended sensibilities are the offended sensibilities of the majority, their goals are the goals of the majority and their religious views are the views of the majority.

Jay
New But if the RW is offense to the majority...
how is it that so few people vote? Silence is (at least) tacit acceptance.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New Two main reasons
But if the RW is offense to the majority...
how is it that so few people vote? Silence is (at least) tacit acceptance.

I see two main reasons. The first is the belief that it won't make any difference. That the politicians will cave in to vocal special interests, be they left, right or corporate. This is somewhat true, but at the same time, the fewer that vote the easier it is for small special interest to manipulate the system.

The second is the mistaken belief that the RW posistions are normal, average or acceptable. The Right Wing has become very good at backing slogans and broad posistions without getting into the details of what they actually want to do.

This is why you get people voting for pro-life candidates even though they don't want to make all abortions illegal. The pro-life candidates talk about creating an environment of life, or being tolerant of religious beliefs. People don't understand that some pro-life candidates consider making all abortions illegal is just the first step in a program that intends to make divorce illegal, ban birth control, remove all sex education and so on.

Jay
New I used to think it was "a mistaken belief".
But I don't anymore. I believe Jimmy Carter was right, that the last Presidential election was about the soul of the nation. Further, every poll I've ever seen leads me to the conclusion that RW philosophy *is* the prevalent American philosophy. Certainly my own experience with the populace supports this view.

I've been looking around for a very long time for some, hell any, evidence that this conclusion I've only recently come to, that RW philosophy accurately represents what the majority is thinking, is not correct. But I'm on empty. If the majority of people, for whatever reason, don't care to the point that they won't even vote *against* Dubya, then I don't think there is any hope that "secretly, the silent majority really isn't the mean-spirited, ego-maniacal, uncaring bunch their elected representatives would lead you to believe they are."

[Edits: God, don't write and talk about two separate things simultaneously]
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Feb. 22, 2005, 11:26:12 AM EST
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Feb. 22, 2005, 11:27:26 AM EST
New Forcrissakes.
The neocons won by 1%. After voting shennanigans. Without a positive candidate (most votes that Kerry got WERE 'against Bush').

What next? Are you going to start agreeing with the Neocons that this election was a 'mandate'?
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Or that the election was about 'values'?
New Hey - having the US government in your pocket
is very valuable.

Oh.

You didn't mean corporate values?
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New I have to agree with imric...
beware reading too much into stuff.

Some people voted for Bush because he's a wartime President and changing horses mid-stream etc.

But I think we lost the election because Kerry is the Democratic Bob Dole. (War Veteran, no charisma, etc.) He's an upstanding guy and all, but he's NOT Presidental Leadership material.

That said, I agree with the Republicans on this one. I think there's some fundamental flaws in the Democratic Party Leadership. (Personally, I think Dean is the first step to fixing some of those flaws.)
New Right. 1% of those who voted.
+ 45+% of those who "didn't care enough to vote".
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New I heard parts of it on CSPAN radio.
Both were quite articulate. Scalia isn't the boogieman that he's painted to be in some quarters. As you point out, he has a different world-view than many. My take was that he relies quite heavily on the separation of powers and thinks legislatures should legislate.

I didn't hear the whole thing, so I'll defer to your take. But the conversation reinforced to me the importance of hearing people's words from themselves rather than relying exclusively on excerpts and summaries from news and opinion sources.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Most important part.
Legislators should legislate.

This is the most fundadmental of his and my "strict" readers of the Constitution..and obviously something that a room full of lawyers and Judges are going to dispute.

Rules of precedent and other "legislation from the bench" are simply the way that one part of the government has found to circumvent the checks and balances written into the Constitution and will generally not meet with the favor of a man who thinks the document needs to be enforced >as written<.

Of course, the exec branch has found there ways around it..as has the legislative branch.

But Congress's job is to legislate. Noone else's.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I agree with the theory
I agree fully with that in theory, I believe in a pretty strict and literal reading of the constitution.

The problem in practice with that is that most people that say they are strict constitutionalists ignore the 9th admendment. Just look at the endless arguments from strict constitutionalists that the right to privacy isn't mentioned in the constitution.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


The people that wrote the Constitution and the first admendments where fully aware that no list could spell out all the rights of the people. Rather they wrote a document that gave certain powers to the government and said everything else is reserved to the people.

Unfortunatly, judges have been very unwilling to rule that the government has overstepped it's authority.

Jay
New I Call Fscking B.S. (new thread)
Created as new thread #196020 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=196020|I Call Fscking B.S.]
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New Ignore, my post isn't worth the time
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric Feb. 22, 2005, 09:14:04 AM EST
Expand Edited by imric Feb. 22, 2005, 09:14:34 AM EST
New Sorry, just had to.
And I'll bury my response, too ;0)

And so I did.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Feb. 22, 2005, 09:51:55 AM EST
Expand Edited by mmoffitt Feb. 22, 2005, 09:52:01 AM EST
New OT: Hungry Ghosts
I realize I am getting off-topic here, but your post connected in my head somehow with a book I've been reading: [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805056688/qid=1109089801/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/102-7943787-4924158?v=glance&s=books&n=507846|"Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine"].

I think the book taught me the reason why hunger and disaster is so intimately connected with the "good people" ideologies coming to power.

The communists, when they come to power in some country, do it after convincing themselves that conditions are ripe for building commusnist society. The communists that are not convinced of that, like Plekhanov in Russia, do not take power. So here they are, in control of the country, armed with the infallible scientific method, ready to build Paradize. And, as they start building, things go wrong. For example, farmers resist grain requisitions. That realy should not happen, according to theory. The country was ripe for socialism, remember? Now, the communists are faced with the decision. Do they re-evaluate their original decisions, or do they press on, applying more of the infallible theory, streightening the dictatorship of proletariat? Lenin choose to retreat, hence NEP. Mao choose to press on, hence Cultural Revolution after 3 years of famine.
(note, I don't even talk about Stalin, who had no ideology whatsoever, apart for power).

So here it is, in the nutshell: the communist make life hell because they expect people to be good. And when the people aren't good enough for them, they replace the people. With corpses.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New There's a lot of truth in that argument....
Communism - true communism, requires that the participants be very (hmm..bad word?) morally advanced. (It also assumes that the leaders will be morally advanced.)

Personally I think large segments of this world's population are not ready for a system of government that requires them to be that advanced.
New Concur and well said tovarisch (Arkadiy).
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New "I have always maintained that human beings are the...
...missing link between apes and civilized beings."
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
New Well, if you look a Marx's writings
it has nothing to do with such subjective thing as "morality". The idea is that at some point the society produces so much that the distribution mechanism known as "market" is just useless overhead, taking more resources for the sake of "market" than the amount of production it makes possible. So "the market" gets discarded. The "morality" does not matter, because a) there is so much of everything, even the greediest people will be sated and b) people are basically good, so if the work is not hard (and there is no hard work left, see (a)) they will do it for fun. Yes, point (b) comes close to "morality", but Marx backs it up with other things - I am not good enough Marxist to remember them.

I don't think a single country in the known universe reached the conditions need for real Marxist revolution. Nor do I hold my breath.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New "Phooey" on Scalia
many of us have been hearing this crap all our lives
"we" are not "the people"
"they" are the people

this is b.s.

the "cream" came out of the cow along with the rest of the "milk"

my input or Judge Breyer's input or anyone else's is valid
statistics don't enter into it

this is just an attempt by Scalia to forward his fascist agenda while
paying hypocritical lip-service to "his betters"

A


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New Link to online version of discussion.
[link|http://www.cspan.org/Search/advanced.asp?AdvancedQueryText=scalia&StartDateMonth=1&StartDateYear=2005&EndDateMonth=2&EndDateYear=2005&Series=&ProgramIssue=&QueryType=&QueryTextOptions=&ResultCount=10&SortBy=bestmatch|http://www.cspan.org...&SortBy=bestmatch]
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New Their discussion had an impact on the 5:4 death penalty
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A62584-2005Mar1?language=printer|Washington Post]:

For the Supreme Court itself, perhaps the most significant effect of today's decision is to reaffirm the relevance of international law to its interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

The European Union, human right lawyers from the United Kingdom and a group of former Nobel Peace Prize winners had urged the court in friend-of-the-court briefs to strike down the juvenile death penalty.

In saying that this strong expression of international sentiment "provide[s] respected and significant confirmation for our own conclusions," Kennedy lengthened the recent string of decisions in which the court has incorporated foreign views -- and decisively rejected the arguments of those on the court, led by Justice Antonin Scalia, who say the court should consider U.S. law exclusively.

There were actually six votes in Kennedy's favor on that point today, because in her dissenting opinion, O'Connor said that she agreed with Kennedy that international trends should be considered when determining the meaning of "cruel and unusual punishment" in modern times.

O'Connor's opinion suggested that she came fairly close to joining the majority entirely. If she were a legislator, O'Connor wrote, "I, too, would be inclined to support legislation setting a minimum age of 18 in this context."

But, O'Connor wrote, too few states had recently enacted such laws to convince her that the country generally had "set its face" against the juvenile death penalty.

Scalia, in a separate dissent that was joined by Rehnquist and Thomas, took the majority to task for "proclaim[ing] itself sole arbiter of our Nation's moral standards -- and in the course of discharging that awesome responsibility purport[ing] to take guidance from the views of foreign courts and legislatures."

Noting that the vast majority of countries in the world have more restrictive abortion laws than the United States does, Scalia accused the court of "invok[ing] alien law when it agrees with one's own thinking, and ignor[ing] it otherwise." He read his opinion from the bench, a sign of especially strong disapproval for the court's decision.

Scalia also pointed out that the 18 death-penalty states that limit capital punishment to offenders 18 and over amount to only 47 percent of the 38 death penalty states.

"Words have no meaning if the views of less than 50 percent of death penalty States can constitute a national consensus," he wrote.


Scalia's got a point in the comparisons to abortion, but I think he's wrong. In building an argument one takes whatever support one can to build a stronger case.

Check out the C-SPAN link in Mike's post for more insight into their thought processes.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Scalia Rants!
Scalia, in a separate dissent that was joined by Rehnquist and Thomas, took the majority to task for "proclaim[ing] itself sole arbiter of our Nation's moral standards [...]"

Oh, the outrage! The majority of the Supreme Court as arbiter of "out Nation's moral standards"! For shame on them! This "activist supreme court" daring to address the moral character of the country.


(Where the hell is that fucking sign?!?)





Oh yeah... Here it is [image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

     From the "You can learn something from everyone" bin. - (mmoffitt) - (24)
         Re: From the "You can learn something from everyone" bin. - (JayMehaffey) - (8)
             But if the RW is offense to the majority... - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                 Two main reasons - (JayMehaffey) - (6)
                     I used to think it was "a mistaken belief". - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                         Forcrissakes. - (imric) - (4)
                             Or that the election was about 'values'? -NT - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                 Hey - having the US government in your pocket - (imric)
                             I have to agree with imric... - (Simon_Jester)
                             Right. 1% of those who voted. - (mmoffitt)
         I heard parts of it on CSPAN radio. - (Another Scott) - (3)
             Most important part. - (bepatient) - (2)
                 I agree with the theory - (JayMehaffey)
                 I Call Fscking B.S. (new thread) - (mmoffitt)
         Ignore, my post isn't worth the time -NT - (imric) - (1)
             Sorry, just had to. - (mmoffitt)
         OT: Hungry Ghosts - (Arkadiy) - (4)
             There's a lot of truth in that argument.... - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                 Concur and well said tovarisch (Arkadiy). -NT - (mmoffitt)
                 "I have always maintained that human beings are the... - (inthane-chan)
                 Well, if you look a Marx's writings - (Arkadiy)
         "Phooey" on Scalia - (andread)
         Link to online version of discussion. - (mmoffitt)
         Their discussion had an impact on the 5:4 death penalty - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Scalia Rants! - (jb4)

Happy strategic planning.
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