Post #195,066
2/16/05 10:10:08 PM
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FWIW
We all agree, I believe, that even if he never did anything sexually to any of the kids, he at least knew that other people thought that he did. And, knowing that, continued to put himself in the position to have the accusation made repeatedly.
Any one of us, if we were in a position to offer him advice, would have told him that he just can't do that any more. Either there were people close to him saying so, and he ignored them; or no one said so, and he just never figured it out. Either way, he has a huge blind spot to what other people find acceptable.
Given that, how much credit are you willing to give his assertions that he didn't do anything "wrong"?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #195,076
2/16/05 11:12:31 PM
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I think you've correctly refined that 'limit' of Dumbth
Agree that this perception would be unarguably the majority one, especially given our bizarre sexual hangups. That would have been the advice he should have gotten? probably did get? Arrogance? (So hard to separate that from pedestrian Dumbth, y'know? I cite: Dubya.)
If.. they have court-acceptable dates/times/'aloneness' (MMO in copspeak) - then his only defense must come down to the utterly unprovable.. mindset.
(Then note all the gossip that persists re L. Carroll and his obsession with 'Alice'. Now, even A. Lincoln is in for sexual-ID titillating: we have neither shame nor cuth. And so many without a Life, while invariably ready to manage Yours - from the more absurd passages in the Gud Gawd Book)
Oh Well.. crap shoot. The mob is always looking for fresh meat; never make it easy for them.
We need a Remember Hypatia Day
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Post #195,082
2/16/05 11:33:51 PM
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Meat Meat MEAT!!!!
[link|http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0113052jackson1.html|http://www.thesmokin...3052jackson1.html]
Two New Jersey children were served alcohol by Michael Jackson during an early-2003 visit to the singer's Neverland Ranch, according to police interviews with the California boy who has accused Jackson of sexual molestation.
[link|http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/010605jackson.html|http://www.thesmokin...10605jackson.html]
If the harrowing and deeply disturbing allegations in these documents are true, Jackson is a textbook pedophile, a 46-year-old predator who plied children with wine, vodka, tequila, Jim Beam whiskey, and Bacardi rum. A man who gave boys nicknames like Doo Doo Head and Blowhole and then quizzed them about whether they masturbated and if "white stuff" came out. A man who conducted drinking games with minors and surfed porn with them on a laptop in his Neverland Ranch bedroom, noting that if anyone asked what they were looking at, the kids should just say they were watching "The Simpsons." A man who frequently talked sex with his little companions and explained that "boys have to masturbate or they go crazy." A man who told one pajama-clad boy that he wanted to show him how to "jack off." When the tipsy child declined the demonstration, Jackson announced, "I'll do it for you," and buried his hand in the boy's Hanes briefs, size small. And a man who emphasized to his little friends that these activities were "their little secret" and should not be disclosed to anyone, even if a gun was at their head.
[link|http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/25132004.htm|http://www.femalefir...rity/25132004.htm]
In the interview with Bashir - whose documentary LIVING WITH MICHAEL JACKSON helped spark the investigation against the pop star - Bashir asks, "Were you ever shown any images that were inappropriate?"
Feldman responds, "If you consider it inappropriate for a man to look at a book of naked pictures with a child that's 13 or 14 years old, then your answer would be yes."
[link|http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/010605jacksonsplotch.html|http://www.thesmokin...cksonsplotch.html]
A detailed recounting of the criminal probe of Jackson is contained in sealed documents reviewed by TSG. An affidavit from former Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department deputy Deborah Linden was filed in 1993 to secure court permission to photograph Jackson's private parts. Investigators sought the images in a bid to corroborate allegations made by 13-year-old Jordan Chandler. The boy told police that Jackson frequently masturbated him, adding that he could provide a detailed description of the star's penis as a way of proving the pair had been intimate.
According to the Linden affidavit, Chandler told police that Jackson justified the illicit acts by saying, "it was okay and natural because other friends had done this" with him. The singer, then in his mid-30s, also allegedly told the boy that, "masturbation is a wonderful thing." The celebrity also told Chandler that if he ever spoke about the incidents, he would be "placed in Juvenile Hall," and they both would get in trouble.
The document also describes a confrontation between Jackson and Chandler's father Evan, who suspected that the performer may have been assaulting his son during sleepovers. The elder Chandler tracked Jackson down to his "hideaway apartment" in Los Angeles.
The boy's father asked Jackson, "Are you fucking my kid?"
The entertainer "became very upset" and told Chandler that he did not use that word. Linden notes that the singer did not answer the question or deny the allegation.
With Los Angeles Police Department detectives weighing his claims, Chandler gave them a roadmap to Jackson's below-the-waist geography, which, he said, includes distinctive "splotches" on his buttocks and one on his penis, "which is a light color similar to the color of his face." The boy's information was so precise, he even pinpointed where the splotch fell while Jackson's penis was erect, the length of the performer's pubic hair, and that he was circumcised.
This is not a crap shoot. This is a smoking gun.
Please Ash, what more do you need? Note, there is a lot more out there, most of it taken from police affidavits, in graphic captures, so it is difficult to paste into this forum, but all you need to do it wander the TSG web site.
CRUCIFY HIM!!!!!!
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Post #195,097
2/17/05 1:15:23 AM
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Probably he will be
Crucified, that is.
But do you really want to make an altar offering of more Fresh Meat to the Ashcroftian hordes -- without including in that Love Offering -- the parents/donors who Knew or Ought to have Known all this stuff you say is.. amongst the "lot more out there"?
Hobson's Choice, wrapped in the enigma which is the Puritan fucking-up of all pleasurable activity -- until we kick that habit (and the Puritans) out.
Some other Millennium, perhaps.
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Post #195,151
2/17/05 10:39:10 AM
2/17/05 10:40:02 AM
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Just a note.
From personal experience, I wouldn't trust one word out of Corey Feldman's mouth where there's a quick buck to be made.
And as far as MJ goes, if he's guilty, he's guilty, if not, he's not. I really don't care about him much - there are bigger criminals at loose today. When was the last time an arms dealer got arrested?
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #195,250
2/17/05 6:15:18 PM
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why should arms dealers be arrested? Puzzled
"I am not scared of al Qaeda, I am scared of fucking al Cracker sayeth Chris Rock
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Post #195,369
2/18/05 10:57:34 AM
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Criminals in my mind.
Selling arms to boths sides of a conflict.
Selling arms to dictators of countries that really need economic development more than military development.
Sparking wars where there weren't any.
Etc.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #195,371
2/18/05 11:24:45 AM
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Trying to get the entire US regime locked up?
Selling arms to boths sides of a conflict.
Selling arms to dictators of countries that really need economic development more than military development.
Sparking wars where there weren't any. Which one ISN'T done by the US? A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #195,426
2/18/05 5:40:26 PM
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selling credit cards SUV's timeshares drugs no different
"I am not scared of al Qaeda, I am scared of fucking al Cracker sayeth Chris Rock
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Post #195,428
2/18/05 6:08:25 PM
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Quite a few of those rank as criminals in my book.
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Post #195,495
2/19/05 5:03:21 AM
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There are no 'criminal activities' in Capitalism du jour.
(only un-Taxed drugs get you jailed for 40 years). If there's profit in a transaction, it's OK. We'll make it OK in a trice, if it happened to start out being Illegal - but someone else is making $$ at it.
Or, per one daleross, (Billy Shill) from forums long ago:
"If it's legal it's ethical"
Yup, He Said That (and tried to defend it.. effetely, of course)
We Know what We Are and what Our Price is..
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Post #195,080
2/16/05 11:19:47 PM
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Well, as far as I'm concerned . . .
. . this whole damned sex business is blown all out of proportion and taken far more seriously than it deserves. In my view the greatest tragedy of my life so far is that I wan't molested by an older woman until I was already 21.
So some 12 year old gets his dick jerked by an older man. Hell, how does that compare to the indignities he's going to suffer in the working world when he's an adult, indignities that can actually kill him? The Greek philosophers admired by many didn't see it as a problem, nor did macho Greek warriors (though it was considered scandalous to be still hanging out with an older guy once your beard started to grow).
Now for girls this is a lot more serious - they are more vulnerable to disease, they are likely to suffer a serious parasite infection (pregnancy) if old enough, but most important, women are in the business of trading sex for security, so this amounts to theft of trade without compensation and should certainly be punished as such with bumps for her risks as mentioned above.
So there's at least some possibility this weirdo sucked some boy's dick at a location he was delivered to by supposedly minimally aware parents. La-di-friggen-da!
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #195,096
2/17/05 1:04:23 AM
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Wanna run for President?
Fortunately, I didn't have to wait longer than ~15 for that pliant Older Woman - and I had been ready for that anatomy lesson since quite earlier. Then too, (boys school) I'm grateful that our Official Queer guy was a genuinely fine chap, nonpredatory.. and he inadvertently defused / nullified inculcation of The Usual Murican homophobia - at least within our little school.
Concur on the rest, except you are changing the scale -- to the level of,
What {might be} any number of Saner societies than this permanently-broken Puritan-polluted one? Essay question, that -- but Easy.
One can.. conceive, construct protections of the young from the inevitable percent of despicable older, without inventing Draconian punishments for what amounts to -- violation of folkways, far more than 'mores'.
The [exploding?] multi-$B Pron Industry, now shepherded by Our Biggest Capitalist Symbols -- is all the factoid one needs to know, to begin to gauge the level of neurasthenia of Murican behavior.. only the Rapturin-Out folks can exceed the absurdity of our sexual dysfunction.
'Course too, we would both have been burned by now! merely a few decades ago - for allegedly thinking such thoughts. And there are plenty of wannabe Incendiaries today, just waiting for their funding from CompassionateFaith-based Govt. coffers - to begin building some new improved pyres, at the going new rates:
One more J. Jackson nipple on Prime Time (Farmily Valuez) Tee Vee == $500K.
Hours of nipples, at your friendly Corporate Hotel Chain == ~$50/night.
Hypocrites R'US
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Post #195,918
2/22/05 10:07:56 AM
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Wow!
I was going to stay out of this until I read and re-read your post. Being I mother, I was ready to fight you to the death over your words. If someone EVER touched one of my kids I would tear them apart.
But then I got to thinking about trauma. I guess it all depends on how traumatized a kid feels after the molestation takes place. If the level of trauma is low, a kid will probably be okay. But if the level of trauma is high- say the perp threatened the child, the child felt a lot of guilt, the actual molestation was painful, the molestation occured over an extended period of time, or the perp overpowered the child.. then kid can become develop some pretty severe pathologies as they grow up. And the kid will likely become a molester in an attempt to deal with his/her pathologies.
So it's not la dee friggin da.
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
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Post #195,921
2/22/05 10:46:46 AM
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You're wrong about something there
And the kid will likely become a molester in an attempt to deal with his/her pathologies.
Contrary to myth, most victims of child molestation do not grow up to become molesters.
If you think about it, that doesn't make sense as a simple numbers game. Your average molester molests many dozens of children over a lifetime. (Recindivism among child abusers is particularly high because that's what interests them sexually, and our sex drives are very hard to deny.) If most of them went on to abuse, we'd shortly be overwhelmed by child abusers, and we're not.
Of course I still disagree with Andrew about abuse - you're right that it causes a lot of problems for kids, particularly because of things that perpetrators do to keep from being caught. But relatively few victims actually go on to abuse.
Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,924
2/22/05 11:00:03 AM
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Agreed.
My wife treats child victims of abuse. While these kids don't become the next Chester for the most part, they do have a tendancy to do much more poorly in school, have severe emotional problems, and drop out of school. The combination of issues tends to lead them down the path to become the next generation of teen moms, petty crooks, and violent offenders - they may not become child molesters, but they do have a tendancy to act on their sexual urges much more uncontrollably, leading to an increased tendancy towards rape.
The worst part about this is the ones who are most vulnerable are the ones who are getting shafted the worst in Washington state's most recent cycle of budget cuts. The best time to head this stuff off is early on, before they get stuck in a class of behavior, and we're cutting child mental health services something fierce. This just guarantees an increase in the crime rate, and more funding for police services 10 years down the road - something the typical North American potbellied beersucker doesn't seem to grok worth a damn.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #195,941
2/22/05 12:15:59 PM
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Question.
Although I would agree with the contention that most victims of child sexual abuse do not go on to become abusers, is it the case that most abusers were in fact abused?
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #195,947
2/22/05 12:41:06 PM
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That was my point
Well said.
Not every abused kid is going to end up abusing others, but if the kid's psyche is messed up enough it's likely the child will continue the pattern.
I've seen young abused children act out sexually because it's what they know and it's how they think the world works. It's very confusing for a child. If someone molests a child and tells the child they did it because they love the child, then how does the child learn to express love? Through inappropriate sexual acts.
Or if the child felt powerless during the abuse, how does the child regain that lost power? By abusing others.
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
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Post #195,961
2/22/05 1:57:20 PM
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Self-fulfilling prophecy?
Think about this from the perspective of an abused child. The message is that not only did you suffer, but now you're doomed to become a monster. If someone grows up believing that they are doomed to become what they most hate, that's a pretty big cross to bear. And I suspect that believing this message would make it harder to deal with the problems that result from abuse, and therefore would make the prediction more likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Even if it doesn't become a self-fulfilling prophecy, it adds a huge burden to children. Particularly since it makes it hard to cope with things that happen to most people. For instance what man has not looked at a woman, thought she was attractive, and then realized that she's jail-bait? If you're fighting the belief that you're a child abuser in the making, this trivial event becomes a confirmation of your worst fears. How are you supposed to cope?
I far prefer focussing on the fact that most abused children do not grow up into abusers. There really is hope, and knowledge that there is a way out bears the possibility of becoming a much better self-fulfilling prophecy. That doesn't mean that we should be Pollyannas (particularly when it comes to protecting our own kids!), but it does suggest a more measured response.
This is even true in the case of children whose abuse pattern included secondary cases of abuse as children. I don't think that someone's actions at 12 when they don't understand what they are doing inevitably predict what they'll do at 24 when they hopefully do understand.
Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,958
2/22/05 1:39:51 PM
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I don't know the answer to that
And it may be that nobody really does.
It certainly seems plausible that the patterns that lead to abuse are set as a kid and then acted out as an adult. And certainly plenty of examples exist of people who did that. However it is also true that it is common for "normal" people in our society to oversexualize youth. This may have biological roots, certainly there is evidence that something has been selecting powerfully for neoteny in humans. Inthane mentioned the speculation at [link|http://www.davidbrin.com/neotenyarticle1.html|http://www.davidbrin...tenyarticle1.html], and that fits here.
Further complicating any attempt to gather reliable statistics is false memory syndrome. Many people honestly believe themselves to have been abused that weren't. This does not minimize the fact that many believe themselves to have been abused that really were - abuse is depressingly common - but it does make statistics gathering harder. Particularly since the nature of how it arises makes people with false memory syndrome more likely to volunteer themselves than people who really were abused.
However I know that some studies were done in the late 80's on abuse cases which were currently going on. (I was interested in this topic at that point since I was dating someone who had been through abuse.) My recollection says that most abusers were not related to the children that they abused. You were, for instance, far more likely to be abused by a stepfather than your real father. In the remaining cases where close relatives abused you, evidence suggested strongly that the abusing relatives were ones who had not participated significantly in your early child care. (This description certainly fit the case of interest to me at the time.) At least one study suggested that making serial abusers participate in early child care for further children lessened the odds that they would abuse.
I don't know whether this evidence has stood the test of time. (I haven't kept track of research on the field since it no longer relates to my life...) However my thought at the time is that there seems to be a family/available dating material dichotomy in people. And participating in early childcare seems to trigger the "family" side of that. (Another line of evidence towards the basic idea - anecdotal reports say that unrelated children raised as one family in a kibutz do not wind up dating each other, even though the adults involved would have no objection.)
All of which goes to say that, with no specific evidence, I lean towards the belief that becoming an abuser depends on a variety of factors of which growing up in an abusive family is only one, and possibly is not even the most important.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,960
2/22/05 1:53:55 PM
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Just wanted to point out...
...that you actually pointed out that article to me in the first place. :)
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Post #195,934
2/22/05 11:47:03 AM
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Part of the trauma is because trauma is expected.
I'm not saying that trauma isn't real and shouldn't be taken seriously under the current social norms - I just think the current norms are a little "abnormal", tending to hysteria.
Of course, I don't at all object to hanging predatory molesters. It's the milder incidental things that seem so over-done.
Disclaimer: I am not a child molester. I have, however, read plenty about other non-molesters who's lives have been destroyed by false accusations extracted from children under stressful interrogation - so I literally will have nothing to do with children. It's just comon sense.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #195,945
2/22/05 12:31:29 PM
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I thought about that, too.
It all depends on what is taboo in your culture and what isnt. I think you brought up the ancient greeks- Men having sex with boys was part of their culture. It was accepted by society so there was no guilt and probably very little trauma.
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
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Post #195,956
2/22/05 1:19:51 PM
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Furthermore there was less sex than is believed
In that culture, anal sex was something that one did with slaves. The encounters between adult men and boys apparently were seen as romantic, but not did not generally include certain activities.
I still have trouble believing that the boys did not come out with what we'd consider emotional scars from the experience, but I'll readily believe that they came out with less scarring than a boy in our culture who had the same experience would be expected to have from it.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #196,009
2/22/05 6:21:49 PM
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look at the british upper class for an example
may you go in beauty
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Post #196,011
2/22/05 6:32:18 PM
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Is that why a gay couple I used to know . .
. . referred to their bed as "The playing fields of Eton"?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #196,013
2/22/05 7:02:22 PM
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exactemundo
may you go in beauty
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Post #196,171
2/24/05 3:58:47 AM
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Re: I thought about that, too.
It all depends on what is taboo in your culture and what isnt. Thou sayest, as did Andrew. So say I. Damn.. this should be in Gothic Gaudy. In my view (of some decades more than the median age of this motley crewel) - that aspect transcends all the .. standard desperate or so often vicious responses to almost anything to do with sex and especially sex/children in the USA. It ALL depends upon the mindset of the child! Example from personal experience at ~ 9ish: Movie theatre. Guy maybe 25-35 in next seat (what does a 9 yo know about 'ages' of the ruling adult class?) Guy makes overtures, all unspecific. To me: this is a strange critter. Curious, though, natch (an uncurious kid is a kid already nagged into submission, ready for a life as a chartered accountant). Wants me to go with him to the john. Ah.. That kind of 'strange'?They have urinals there. He proceeds to use one. Hmmm.. his member is all red; clear what he's been doing a lot of. OK, curiosity satisfied.But in this case, the manipulatee becomes the manipulator. I may not yet have grokked the phrase, hit on, but I knew it when I saw it. So I said (so as to end any possibility of further attention) ~~ "Ummm, I noticed that usher looking at you. A lot." He was gone. Trauma? Fear and loathing? Tendency to take-the-cloth and learn to molest all the young Christians, during their inculcation into becoming Penitent Young Sinners / despising all their natural impulses? Nahhh. Just life experience. But then, I could not project that encounter into a 9 yo mindset - already circumsized for no reason at all [thus desensitizing the glans for life - with all sorts of Interesting side-effects one can read about], catechismized at say, age 5 == already told, Don't Touch That Dirty Thing! (androgynous, that chestnut - it's used on girls too, I've heard) and the rest of the Puritan programming process. I was spared that, and am forever grateful.. for the luck of drawing such a parent! I can guess about the demons though, via first-hand stories from the victims of Ashcroftian pecksniffery, and their self-induced suffering. But for the Murican tads not spared the dreariness of a death-obsessed religious overlay on all experience: most of those will forget to read the pithier parts of their Manual (like, Judge not lest ye.. and Vengeance is Mine, saith She) .. and I suppose that many of these shall naturally want to Kill The Bastards. (It's such a Murican response to any crisis. Indians earlier, then Gooks ... currently dead Iraqi men, women, children and donkeys. NK, Iran, Syria next?) Want neurotic adults? Simple: fuck with their minds about 'God'; make em Promise to Obey Her -- ages before they have the foggiest W.T.F. that supernatural stuff is all about; eons before they learn just how ill-informed were mummy n'daddy too. Teach 'em that, like AL Capp's Schmoos, They. Are. Born. Guilty. of A) Eating an apple [allegory Alert] == wanting to Know (the dimensions of their cage). B) Killing Kenny Gawd's Little Boy, JC. C) Enjoying any of their bodily functions very-much. Rest case. Too late to kill all the priests; they're now everywhere - even the White House War Room. Besides - the lawyers have all the reserved spots. After all, we are Materialists first; sanctimony always has to take second place to $ matters.. always. Luck with -your- kid. I sympathize with any parent, but especially with anyone doing it the 100% Murican way. Bet you'll be fine :-\ufffd
The believer is happy.
The doubter is wise.
Hungarian proverb
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