Post #194,772
2/15/05 12:02:38 PM
2/15/05 12:05:56 PM
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Actually, if he keeps doing the drive-bys...
He is: - Spamming us with links to boost his google pagerank
- Not actually interested in debate
- Abusing the ZIWT forums for personal gain
And therefore, any link of his that he places to his blog should be rubbed out as spam. Hell, that's what it is. From the forum guidelines: 5. Obvious spam (weight-loss ads, MakeMoneyFast! schemes, and the like) will be deleted without warning, and the originating login ID will be banned. Posts from non-neutral parties regarding their own products on materials relevant to forum discussion (software, IT periodicals, etc.) will be considered on an ad-hoc basis. In other words, if a question comes up and you sell a product that solves the problem, post it. Do not, however, simply spam the forums with off-topic advertisements, relevant to computers or not.6. "Drop-in" troublemakers who visit for the sole purpose of disrupting the forums or harassing the members will have their posts moved to the "Flame ON!" forum."Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
Actually, if he keeps doing the drive-bys...
He is: - Spamming us with links to boost his google pagerank
- Not actually interested in debate
- Abusing the ZIWT forums for personal gain
And therefore, any link of his that he places to his blog should be rubbed out as spam. Hell, that's what it is. "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #194,775
2/15/05 12:23:40 PM
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ObAOL.
I'm in agreement.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #194,803
2/15/05 2:38:36 PM
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Works for me
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #194,812
2/15/05 3:48:20 PM
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Thirded
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
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Post #194,816
2/15/05 4:15:59 PM
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Are you all crazy?
He doesn't post that often, and he does not get involved in protracted discussions, but he is a legitimate poster. Spam is disagreable, but not everything disagreable is spam. If you want to turn this placed into OBAOL-metoo palace, count me out.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #194,819
2/15/05 4:27:24 PM
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He's interested in one thing: pagerank.
Hence the link-and-then-bugger-off routine.
Any time I read "...continued at blogger.com" I know I'm in the presence of a pagerank-acquiring git.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #194,838
2/15/05 4:59:53 PM
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not done in every post
while every post I make links to my site.
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #194,842
2/15/05 5:31:57 PM
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Ah, but is the point of your post...
...the link to the external site?
In your case, it isn't. In his, it is.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #194,845
2/15/05 5:53:40 PM
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It's hard to read motives.
I don't think we get enough traffic here, at least on political things as opposed to SSL on the AS/400, for someone to think that they'll get much additional traffic from posting links here. Surely posting on DailyKos or Rush's blog (if it exists) would be more appropriate if he were after pageranks or something for his political discussion.
I could be wrong though. The recent WTC thread makes me wonder...
Anyway, I think that marlowe might well post synopses here and encourage discussion elsewhere as a convenience for him. Rather like people who requested e-mail responses to questions on Usenet. Yes it's rude to others in most circumstances, but it's not necessarily nefarious. I doubt that marlowe is getting much in the way of notoriety or income from his blog(s).
marlowe rubs lots of people the wrong way. He rarely responds to criticism of his posts here anymore except to use broad-brush rants against his conception of the left. It's unfortunate. But he doesn't post much here anymore as it is. I don't think that more needs to be done than simply ignore him if (generic) you don't like his contributions. I haven't seen anything worth banning his posts thus far.
I agree with Arkadiy that this place would be very bland if people didn't feel reasonably free to speak their mind. Monocultures are bad in politics just as they are in operating systems. Advocates on both sides should be able to present their views, even if they're stupid. ;-) I think that at least one of the regulars has been shouted down far too often and subsequent discussion here has suffered greatly for it.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #194,850
2/15/05 6:23:13 PM
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What A.S. said
While I wouldn't miss marlowe for a minute were he to choke to death on his own bullshit, his drivebys are both infrequent and ineffectual (rather like having spitballs lobbed in one's direction from the other side of an eight-lane freeway), and he has left off with the silly "quagmire" graphic—though this was probably for reasons other than a tender consideration for the members on dialup connections. Few of us, I daresay, are seduced by his posts into following the screeds back to their source at Angelfire. He's harmless.
I vote against the punitive treatment that's been proposed.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #194,990
2/16/05 1:15:01 PM
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I concur with Rcareaga
Marlowe is relatively harmless. If you think he's trying to lead you back to his site, don't go. Heck, I never do. Meanwhile, he has calmed down considerably and doesn't rant nearly like he used to, and sometimes he even says something that makes you think.
Who'da thunk it, The Owl defending Marlowe...
Nightowl >8#
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #194,996
2/16/05 1:32:30 PM
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It's not about the *going*...
...it's the *linking*.
It's obnoxious. It's spam. It's trolling, because he's not actually interested in participation.
If you want to talk here, talk here. If that's too much trouble, bugger off.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #194,999
2/16/05 1:41:27 PM
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I am not in favor of discipline as proposed.
Sure he can be annoying at times but if you ban everyone who fits that description you aren't going to have many posting here. He does do a bit of "drive by", but often comes back to respond in a day or so - maybe he's busy.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #195,001
2/16/05 1:58:54 PM
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Actually...
...if you ban everyone who fits that description, you'd ban Marlowe. Full stop.
I'm not in favour of banning him. I'm in favour of deleting his spam.
Now, I'm pragmatic; I'm aware that this is a fairly hypothetical discussion. As it stands, Marlowe's posts are not going to be deleted.
However, that should not preclude this discussion.
And to those who think that zapping Marlowe's droppings like the spamming trollbug turds that they are would lead to a groupthinkAOLmetooquagmire, well lookee here. I'm disagreeing with you RIGHT NOW.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #195,017
2/16/05 2:51:45 PM
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Ah, right
You're from a country which doesn't believe, even in theory, that "freedom of speech" deserves protection.
I need reminding of that sometimes.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,019
2/16/05 2:54:08 PM
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Don't be smarmy.
It's not becoming.
I refer you to Todd's passport-confiscation story for how free speech is in the US of A.
"Might Be Harmful", ya see...
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #195,021
2/16/05 3:05:03 PM
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I said "even in theory"
In theory, in the USA, we have freedom of speech. Whatever the practice may be.
The UK doesn't subscribe to the theory, though in some respects the practice may be better.
Regards,
Ben
PS I grew up in Canada, which is in the same position as the UK on this topic.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,028
2/16/05 3:12:01 PM
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No it's not
I refer you to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, notwithstanding clause notwithstanding.
'Course, when did you leave... was it before or after '80?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #195,043
2/16/05 5:57:00 PM
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I left in the 90's
And I clearly remember, after I left, that it was routine for there to be court cases in which judges would say that stories were not allowed to be reported on in Canada.
Glancing at the Charter, the first clause is an exemption that you could drive a Mack truck through, and undoubtably the cases of court muzzling that I remember were so driven. That is, the government is free to erect any limitations on the rights guaranteed in the Charter as long as they can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. I'm sure that Bush, Ashcroft and Co. would love it if the US system had a blanket exemption as big as that one (particularly if you can get your case heard by a friendly judge).
I stand by my statement. Canada does not, even in theory, uphold the principle of freedom of speech. The USA definitely does that in theory, and has been known to do it in very painful and embarrasing practice. (eg The Pentagon Papers for one example, or for another, instructions for how to build hydrogen bombs.)
Sincerely,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,046
2/16/05 6:03:20 PM
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Hey, publication bans happen all the time in the US too
The point being that they're temporary, not permanent. It's very unusual for them to be made permanent, with the exception of sexual abuse cases involving minors (or indeed any case involving minors). However, during a trial sometimes things are banned from publication until after a jury reaches a verdict to avoid polluting a jury.
Afterwards, the entire transcript will be published, and anybody who cares to can go down to the courthouse and read it. The cases you heard about were almost universally because the newspapers in question didn't want to have to wait.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #195,048
2/16/05 6:44:35 PM
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They do? Examples, please.
As I understand it, a judge can decide whether or not to permit reporters in the court, and can try to get reporters to agree to specific conditions. However judges can't tell reporters that they cannot tell people about a case, and cannot keep reporters who happen to hear details from reporting them.
By contrast in Canada judges may say that they don't want something reported, and nobody is allowed to report it. Period.
Furthermore my impression of how common permanent publication bans are is different from yours. Specifically I understand that it is rare for an entire case to not be reportable (excepting cases involving minors - and there are lots of those), but fairly frequently a small portion of a case is permanently banned (eg testimony from family members about how much grief they went through, which doesn't affect whether the verdict is guilty, but may affect sentencing).
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,053
2/16/05 6:59:50 PM
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Another amusing point about the charter
Canada is (unlike the USA) explicitly founded on principles that recognize the supremacy of God, but grants freedom of religion.
In the USA state non-interference in religion is an absolute.
As someone who does not believe that God exists, which do you think I prefer reading?
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #195,252
2/17/05 6:20:13 PM
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God is undefined in the charter
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #195,322
2/18/05 12:39:57 AM
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...unless declared integer :-)
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #195,352
2/18/05 8:28:03 AM
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I always figured she was a float(er).
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #195,358
2/18/05 9:33:41 AM
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No, gotta be something with arbitrary precision...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #195,359
2/18/05 9:34:59 AM
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Floaters are arbitrary
when you have infinite bit length.
Esp. when they're making fashion decisions. They really ARE arbitrary then.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #195,035
2/16/05 4:32:37 PM
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Oh please
"Never pick a fight with people who buy inc by the barrel"
Somebody in Customs is in a lot of hurt now. A whole lot of somebodies, I'd think.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #195,038
2/16/05 5:13:15 PM
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No they're not.
That's not how customs works.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #194,827
2/15/05 4:34:39 PM
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What Peter said.
Note that if he actually showed interest in continuing conversations here, instead of his hit-n-run style, I wouldn't call him like this. This behavior is new, and is designed apparently to drive traffic to his blog. If any other member did this, I'd call it the same.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #194,837
2/15/05 4:59:09 PM
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You think his posts are really more than flamebait?
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
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Post #194,965
2/16/05 11:53:09 AM
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It may be a flamebait
but not spam. I don't think he is after page ranks - about half of my posts are a link with tiny commentary, and I know I am not after page ranks.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #194,966
2/16/05 11:57:00 AM
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Key point:
They're not links to your blog.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #194,969
2/16/05 12:01:03 PM
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So he prefers to keep his thoughts in his own place
while not abandoning the old crowd and the old arguments he's been fighting for years. So what?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #194,991
2/16/05 1:17:06 PM
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I agree there too
As someone who runs several groups and now has some split off from the main one, it's tiresome and time-consuming to repeat the same post in five places or more, even with cut and paste. Therefore I understand leading people back to the one place and the one posting.
As I said before, if you think all he is after are visits to his site, just don't go. If we aren't serving his purpose anymore, (if that turns out to be his reasoning), he'll quit, won't he?
Brenda
Nightowl >8#
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #194,848
2/15/05 6:11:58 PM
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Also.
I give you Moffitt. I give you Patient.
These two ALONE should be enough to destroy any notion of AOLesque me-tooism here.
Plus the fact that I think you're all raving right-wing nutters and that America would make a nice car park for Canada and Britain. [0]
But I love you :-)
Marlowe's goal is to disrupt, to annoy, to generate a response. It's attention-seeking behaviour, and what better attention than pagerank?
More content is not necessarily better. I find the current level of posting too much to keep up with some days. Marlowe's "contribution" is a net negative, IMHO.
[0] Put down those jingo bells, chaps. It's a joke.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #195,259
2/17/05 6:44:12 PM
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Hrmm
Plus the fact that I think you're all raving right-wing nutters and that America would make a nice car park for Canada and Britain. Wouldn't help you, Peter...you're too busy being stuck in roundabouts to worry about where you're gonna park once you get out of them... ;-) jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #194,818
2/15/05 4:24:16 PM
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If he repeats the link only bit
If he repeats the trick of posting nothing but a link to his site very often, I would consider removing his posts.
As it is, some of his posts might be better served moved to the flame forum, but that isn't the same as voiding them.
Jay
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Post #194,846
2/15/05 6:06:16 PM
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completely disagree!!
I enjoy his posts,
I have used our page ranking to launch sites.
Every Site he maintains he has a link to us here.
He is trying out a new blog, and as a fellow Z member I will support that effort and post a brief commentary there with a link back to the thread here.
Marlowe may be a driveby lately but so what?
At least he shows up.
regards,
daemon
"I am not scared of al Qaeda, I am scared of fucking al Cracker sayeth Chris Rock
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Post #195,612
2/20/05 1:08:56 PM
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Dude, the debate's over. All wrapped up November 2.
What we're having now is a debate over the meaning of the debate. And if you think I'm not participating in *that* debate, you're just not paying attention.
I've long since wised up to the game of trying to please people like you guys. You can't manipulate me that way. But don't stop complaining! It amuses me.
Say, what was that about making money fast? Tell me more!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, pardon us for winning the election.
Memo to Democrats and to the Left: hatred is not a substitute for vision.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://marlowe-essays.blogspot.com/2005/01/what-we-need-prescription-for-our.html|http://marlowe-essay...tion-for-our.html] - What We Need - a prescription for our times
[link|http://marlowe-essays.blogspot.com/2005/01/where-i-stand-proverbs-and-axioms-for.html|http://marlowe-essay...d-axioms-for.html] - Where I Stand - Proverbs and axioms for the real world
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Post #196,724
2/28/05 11:44:37 PM
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Spoken like a true authoritarian.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #197,379
3/6/05 2:32:11 PM
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If democracy is authoritarianism, then yes.
Otherwise, no. Either way, it's not my problem.
I believe in democracy. Do you?
----------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like my posts, don't click on them.
Well, pardon us for winning the election.
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Post #197,512
3/7/05 1:27:21 PM
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The way you practice it, it is....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #198,351
3/13/05 2:51:08 PM
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Practise makes perfect.
By the way, the Democrat party seems to be off their game as of late.
----------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like my posts, don't click on them.
Well, pardon us for winning the election.
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Post #198,620
3/14/05 6:01:36 PM
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And it really WOULD be easier if it were a dictatorship
...so long as you're the dictator, right Philbert?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #198,414
3/14/05 1:30:07 AM
8/21/07 6:27:41 AM
|
I do not think that word means what you think it means
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #198,416
3/14/05 2:03:34 AM
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..and a passel of other words.
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Post #198,492
3/14/05 11:26:01 AM
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He only misinterprets 800,000 (or so) English words.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #198,498
3/14/05 11:36:56 AM
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Wow! you do him a lot of credit
If I understand this correctly, the Oxford English Dictionary contains 97,600 primary words with 500,000 definitions of them. The bot would have to create new words to misinterpret. Pretty good trick... :) [link|http://www.elearnaid.com/newshoroxend1.html|http://www.elearnaid...ewshoroxend1.html]
# The immense scholarship of the Oxford English Dictionary--brought within reach of everyone:
* 2 Volumes
* 500,000 definitions
* 7.5 million words
* historical useage back to 1700, however it includes Shakespeare who lived from 1564 to 1616
* 4,000 pages
* 97,600 headwords
* 25,250 variant spellings
* 87,400 illustrative quotations
* 7,333 sources of quotations (including 5,519 individual authors)
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Post #198,552
3/14/05 2:07:09 PM
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That's what used to be called the Oxford Abridged, IIRC
and it's abridged to a pretty significant degree.
...though I have to admit that the last number I heard for words in English was ~300,000. To be fair, that was before the Internet and the concomitant boom in word coinings.
Last but not least, yes Marlowe, Democracy can be authoritarian. Just ask anyone Romany, Jewish, Gay, etc after the Bundestag voted to make Hitler dictator.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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