Thoughtcrime.

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to back up his claims that the US has a high tolerance for atrocities when it serves one of the US' goals... and that therefore it should not be a gigantic surprise when someone gets one in on the US.

This does seem to be the claim for which he's taking all the flak.

Sounds more like people attempting to deny reality because it might mean something about one of their social identities that's less than perfect to me.

For example, the gyrations the Republicans are going through to justify approving Gonzalez for Attorney General. Outside the US, his appointment (and probable approval) are pretty much taken as continuing evidence of the hysteria and madness that has taken hold of the US, and esp. US elites. The idea that you're going to appoint someone who called the Geneva Convention "quaint" and that claimed that torture used to gather information rather than for the purpose of inflicting pain is not really torture to become your top cop just makes your government look incredibly bad. The fact that there doesn't seem to be much of a backlash against this by the public makes your country look bad.

After all, it's not a long way from smacking around Gitmo inmates to smacking around the freshly arrested in a police cell... esp. if it's only to get "information" rather than getting a bad cop's jollies off.

I'm not responding to any posts where you mention Churchill.

Look, for many years the US in support of the multi-nationals that call it home has supported atrocities in many locations around the world; against trade unions, against economic nationalists who wanted to nationalise or simply encourage local industry, and so on. That this would result in a lot of people hating the US should not come as a great surprise, as they realise that the people who are randomly killing their union leaders have been trained and paid by the US. That this would eventually blow back on them should not be a great surprise either. What exactly is wrong with saying that? It's not like their hasn't been a boatload of evidence for this: United Fruit, Guatemalan death squads, Nicraguan Contras, etc (and I'm only using Central American examples because I'm more familiar with them; it's not like they don't exist in other developing nations). Saddam Hussein in the eighties is a sterling example of this particular practice; the fact that Hussein basically murdered his way to the top and laid waste to large swaths of ethnic minorities didn't bother the US one bit until he started threatening their interests.

He's just pointing out that expecting people to take that sort of thing with no complaint is extremely unrealistic. For that, he's being pilloried, because a lot of Americans want to feel that their country is completely without responsibility in the motivations of the WTC attackers, so that they can feel justified in any action taken against the ones they feel are responsible. This has some very negative effects for your country. One of the most notable is that the US is currently spending a lot of lives and money attempting to punish a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it, while ignoring a lot of the real perpetrators.

Post #192,624 by rcareaga 2/2/05 10:08:47 AM Reply	Thoughtcrime. Doubleplusungood. Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #192,645 by andread 2/2/05 12:28:27 PM Reply	Re: Thoughtcrime. I believe that freedom of speech includes the right to utter exceptionally idiotic drivel I think that it is somewhat different when a professor in a 'publish or perish' envirionment publishes said drivel If he had facts to back up his claims that would be one a different matter in any case all the 'little Eichmanns' can rest easy as Hamilton College has canceled the forum A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #192,648 by jake123 2/2/05 12:40:12 PM Reply	So, you think that there's zero tolerance for atrocities in US foreign policy? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #192,672 by andread 2/2/05 2:33:22 PM Reply	Don't understand the question Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #192,689 by jake123 2/2/05 4:35:48 PM Reply	You seem to think he doesn't have any facts to back up his claims that the US has a high tolerance for atrocities when it serves one of the US' goals... and that therefore it should not be a gigantic surprise when someone gets one in on the US. This does seem to be the claim for which he's taking all the flak. Sounds more like people attempting to deny reality because it might mean something about one of their social identities that's less than perfect to me. For example, the gyrations the Republicans are going through to justify approving Gonzalez for Attorney General. Outside the US, his appointment (and probable approval) are pretty much taken as continuing evidence of the hysteria and madness that has taken hold of the US, and esp. US elites. The idea that you're going to appoint someone who called the Geneva Convention "quaint" and that claimed that torture used to gather information rather than for the purpose of inflicting pain is not really torture to become your top cop just makes your government look incredibly bad. The fact that there doesn't seem to be much of a backlash against this by the public makes your country look bad. After all, it's not a long way from smacking around Gitmo inmates to smacking around the freshly arrested in a police cell... esp. if it's only to get "information" rather than getting a bad cop's jollies off. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #192,707 by jb4 2/2/05 5:58:08 PM Reply	Don't bother me with the facts, jake123 It means that I might have to think... (And that is anathema to all those of the ~~Wacko Christian Right~~current ruling elite, whose followers seem to believe that being told what to think is aw-rightey!) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #193,022 by andread 2/4/05 11:14:53 AM Reply	he doesn't have any facts Eichmann -- personally directed the extermination of the European Jews Little Eichmanns -- worked in WTC I am not sensing a deep correlation here Are going to say that the guy who mined the metal is on the same moral level as the guy who pulled the trigger and fired the metal bullet I'm not A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #193,268 by jake123 2/6/05 4:48:28 PM Reply	Wow, I guess central american death squads trained in their art by the CIA were imaginary, eh? Out of touch indeed. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #193,308 by ben_tilly 2/6/05 7:26:26 PM Reply	Those were "freedom fighters" I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #193,378 by andread 2/7/05 10:18:15 AM Reply	Re: Wow, I guess central american death squads That does not follow logically from my remarks about Churchill It does no good to say American foreign policy sucks and then to allow any rant against it to be considered reasonable whether it is absurd or not by the same token just because I reject the 'little Eichmanns' usage that does not make me a right-winger or a supporter of US foreign policy A (for Andy not Adolf Eichmann) Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #193,423 by jake123 2/7/05 1:05:03 PM Reply	What remarks about Churchill? I'm not responding to any posts where you mention Churchill. Look, for many years the US in support of the multi-nationals that call it home has supported atrocities in many locations around the world; against trade unions, against economic nationalists who wanted to nationalise or simply encourage local industry, and so on. That this would result in a lot of people hating the US should not come as a great surprise, as they realise that the people who are randomly killing their union leaders have been trained and paid by the US. That this would eventually blow back on them should not be a great surprise either. What exactly is wrong with saying that? It's not like their hasn't been a boatload of evidence for this: United Fruit, Guatemalan death squads, Nicraguan Contras, etc (and I'm only using Central American examples because I'm more familiar with them; it's not like they don't exist in other developing nations). Saddam Hussein in the eighties is a sterling example of this particular practice; the fact that Hussein basically murdered his way to the top and laid waste to large swaths of ethnic minorities didn't bother the US one bit until he started threatening their interests. He's just pointing out that expecting people to take that sort of thing with no complaint is extremely unrealistic. For that, he's being pilloried, because a lot of Americans want to feel that their country is completely without responsibility in the motivations of the WTC attackers, so that they can feel justified in any action taken against the ones they feel are responsible. This has some very negative effects for your country. One of the most notable is that the US is currently spending a lot of lives and money attempting to punish a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it, while ignoring a lot of the real perpetrators. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #193,464 by andread 2/7/05 4:04:27 PM Reply	Re: What remarks about Churchill? I don't have a problem with your statements my problem is being saddled with the likes of Churchill A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #193,214 by marlowe 2/6/05 1:04:22 PM Reply	Nonthoughtcrime, actually. Plus resume fraud. And he's getting off easy. Tenure sucks. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Well, pardon us for winning the election. Memo to Democrats and to the Left: hatred is not a substitute for vision. "All the news you wish would go away" [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #193,283 by daemon 2/6/05 5:36:16 PM Reply	I see, if you're not white yer not right I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice. George Macdonald Frasier Clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]

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