You're getting worse.

Post #191,763 by Arkadiy 1/26/05 4:08:43 PM Reply	You're getting worse. First, break with democracy, now nostagic remembrance of KGB. Read "Gulag Archipelago" recently? Oh BTW, the "hooliganie", "urki", "blatnye" and so on would be in the employ of those well-dressed "communists", ready to beat your friend up when need arises, in prison and out. How many times does it have to happen in the world? Decent people who just want some order do not realise that it's impossible to have "some" order, and that decency will be the first to perish? -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #191,841 by drewk 1/26/05 10:28:38 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #191840 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=191840\|ICLRPD] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #191,940 by Arkadiy 1/27/05 10:28:18 AM Reply	Oh BTW You are in really good company here. No lesser man that Musab al-Zarqawi himself said that "We have declared a bitter war against democracy and all those who seek to enact it" "Democracy is also based on the right to choose your religion, against the rule of God." "...Americans to promote this lie that is called democracy ... You have to be careful of the enemy's plots that involve applying democracy in your country and confront these plots..." Interestingly enough, I could not find full transcript of the speech anywhere. OK, I uderstand why Fox News won't publish it. But why not Al Jazeera? Their article on the latest tape offers a few general "let's fight" quotes and not mentions the word "democracy" at all. Could it be that they are embarrassed? -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #191,967 by mmoffitt 1/27/05 1:09:21 PM Reply	How terribly witty. And what utter bullshit. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #191,969 by mmoffitt 1/27/05 1:13:16 PM Reply	And, BTW. It's not unwise to have serious questions about a system that produces a Nixon, a Reagan and not one but two Bushes. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #191,993 by Arkadiy 1/27/05 2:30:46 PM Reply	Well, how is it bullshit? You and him both think that democracy is a lie. You and him both think that people should not be allowed to choose their religion (or, rather, that choosing a religion should carry some heavy consequences.) You both like to use force - he uses suicide bombers, you prefer KGB. The difference lays in the target state which you're trying to achieve. He wants total theocracy, you want communism. Yes, there is that. But, take carefull look at the means, and you may discover that they determine the end. OK, I am not saying that you're a monster. But you're beginning to look awfully like one to an untrained eye. -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #192,009 by Simon_Jester 1/27/05 3:44:56 PM Reply	Worse, he's beginning to look a lot like Bush "You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier." George W. Bush, Governing Magazine 7/98 "I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator," Bush joked. [link\|http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0012/18/nd.01.html\| source ] "A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it, " [Bush] said. [link\|http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2001/nf20010730_347.htm\| Source ]
Post #192,010 by Arkadiy 1/27/05 3:51:06 PM Reply	I guess so... -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #192,016 by mmoffitt 1/27/05 4:32:00 PM Reply	So, you're comfortable with a democracy that yields a Bush.. and then slander me by comparing me to him. Nice. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #192,018 by Arkadiy 1/27/05 4:42:00 PM Reply	I'll take Bush over Hussein or Stalin, ten times over No, 1000 times over. I am as "comfortable" with our current system as an apendectomy patient is "comfortable" right after the surgery. But I am sure that "comfort" shall pass. BTW (and I should have said it before), the particular quotes from Bush never say that he prefers dictatorship. "Easier" does not always mean "better". It's easier to steal than to earn, but you don't. And the fear of punishment is not the only reason. Come to think about, we heard "moi for the Great Censor" here before, and you actually said that you like that idea. No, neither you nor Bush is same as Zarqawi. The quotes may show that you're closer to Bush than you think. -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #192,086 by mmoffitt 1/28/05 9:04:55 AM Reply	Perhaps. I hope you'd agree, though, that the motivations are polar opposites. For me, that is enough difference. ;-) Back in college in the 1980's (during the Central American mess) a history prof I greatly admired got into a discussion about Left/Right policies with another student. The student became incensed when the prof said, "The leftist guerilla is morally superior to the right wing guerilla." After some flame back and forth the prof finally said, "Yes, I agree that both types of guerillas are capable of horrific deeds. The distinguishing trait, however, that makes the leftist morally superior is that the leftist believes that by doing what he does everyone will be better off. The right winger, on the other hand, is motivated purely by self interest." I buy that, I guess I always have. Maybe it was all that indoctrination at ages 9 and 10. Or maybe it's correct. :0) bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #192,091 by hnick 1/28/05 9:38:54 AM Reply	About labels and absolutes.. The labels "left" and "right" being directly equivalent to "good" and "bad" or "selfless" and "greedy" may be overly simplistic. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that crusader bunnypants really believes that the world will be a better place with his buddies (all completely trustworthy, in his eyes) running the whole show. By your arguement, he is completely justified in invading anybody who opposes his Utopian dream of universal freedom. That he's deranged, is a minor detail. I tend to be extremely suspicious of anybody who claims "moral superiority". But that could be an overly simplistic abstraction on my part.
Post #192,095 by mmoffitt 1/28/05 10:19:36 AM Reply	I think that'd be giving him more credit than is due. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that crusader bunnypants really believes that the world will be a better place with his buddies (all completely trustworthy, in his eyes) running the whole show. Maybe its my built-in distrust of big-time capitalists. But I just cannot imagine that any dyed-in-the-wool capitalist ever thinks about "everybody" except to ponder the extent to which they can be exploited. I, too, am leary of anyone claiming moral superiority. It's just I can still remember the first utterance from the prof of my macro-Econ class as a freshman. He, a dyed-in-the-wool capitalist, said, "Capitalism is built upon self interest. It depends on the uneven distribution in wealth and the individual's drive to have more. That is why it works. That is why no other system ever will." (That's very close to literal). I remember being disgusted with that sentiment. And I am still. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #192,098 by hnick 1/28/05 11:23:40 AM Reply	Distrust and disgust are fine I tend to share both when regarding extremists at either end of the spectrum. In the same way I would tend to doubt Bush's sincerity, I would also be hesitant to assume altruistic motives in AK47 packing social activists. I find that "good", "bad", "greedheads" are probably too simplistic to be useful when dealing with a complicated world. YMMV.
Post #192,093 by Arkadiy 1/28/05 9:41:48 AM Reply	And that goes back to my argument about revolutions eating their children. But I guess I've got my point across to you. No more needs to be said. -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #192,105 by Simon_Jester 1/28/05 1:29:19 PM Reply	Democracy is a risk.... always has been, always will be. It declares (right or wrong) that the people get to decide their government. The ultimate question to anyone who believes in Democracy - can the people vote in a dictatorship? (for the right - a communistic government, for the left - a religious fundamentalism) And there's a lot of comparisons between you and Bush. Bush claims to love democracy...but he will absolutely not allow Iraq to vote in a religious fundamentalism - ie muslim.
Post #192,108 by mmoffitt 1/28/05 2:08:50 PM Reply	"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." :-D bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #192,138 by jake123 1/28/05 5:46:22 PM Reply	That's the point right there There is democracy, and there is liberty; they are not the same, and are often in conflict. It's about how those conflicts are resolved when they arise that show the quality of a nation's character. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #192,340 by mmoffitt 1/31/05 8:20:37 AM 1/31/05 8:21:12 AM Reply	And we haven't been doing too well on that score, have we? bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America) Edited by mmoffitt Jan. 31, 2005, 08:21:12 AM EST Expand All History
Post #192,568 by a6l6e6x 2/2/05 12:19:17 AM Reply	"Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #192,571 by Another Scott 2/2/05 12:33:40 AM Reply	Wasn't he paraphrasing Cicero? [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/may98/goldwater30.htm\|WashPost]: "By the time the convention opened, I had been branded as a fascist, a racist, a trigger-happy warmonger, a nuclear madman and the candidate who couldn't win," Mr. Goldwater recalled. That convention, at the Cow Palace in San Francisco, was long remembered for the spectacle of Goldwater partisans drowning out Rockefeller with a chorus of boos and hoots when he addressed the delegates from the platform. It was also remembered for Mr. Goldwater's own acceptance speech, in which he declared that "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice and . . . moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Mr. Goldwater would later explain that the phrase was borrowed from the Roman statesman Cicero, who used it in one of his orations against his archenemy, the patrician Cataline. But like his comment on defoliation in Vietnam, it caused an immediate uproar, and Mr. Goldwater had to explain himself. In a letter to Richard Nixon, who asked Mr. Goldwater for a clarification, he said that what he meant was that "wholehearted devotion to liberty is unassailable and that halfhearted devotion to justice is indefensible." Cheers, Scott.
Post #192,015 by mmoffitt 1/27/05 4:31:21 PM Reply	I don't think democracy is a "lie". I don't think I've ever said that. What I have said, and stand by, is that the attainment of the lofty, ideal democracy spoken of in our Constitution may be impossible without an enlightened populace. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

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