Post #188,397
12/28/04 2:08:19 PM
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I'm kind of surprised
that no-one's commented on the Indian Ocean disaster.
Overall, looks pretty horrible.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #188,398
12/28/04 2:09:38 PM
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What can be said? :-<
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Post #188,404
12/28/04 2:42:43 PM
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Exactly.
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Post #188,399
12/28/04 2:19:19 PM
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Still stunned
-----------------------------------------
There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart that you can't take part; you can't even tacitly take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machines will be prevented from working at all
Mario Savio
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Post #188,400
12/28/04 2:24:16 PM
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I wondered too
But I didn't comment because earthquakes are something thing I try not to discuss... too scary.
But I agree, it was terrible and I am praying for all of the victims and survivors.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #188,407
12/28/04 2:54:30 PM
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Earthquakes scary?
Our own East Coast is supposed to be wiped out by an underwater mudslide on some island the name of which I've forgotten. Earthquakes kill a few people. Waves kill everyone.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #188,409
12/28/04 2:58:41 PM
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You'd love the Puget Sound...
Apparently the next big earthquake up here will turn the sound into some kind of reflection chamber, sending gigantic tidal waves north and south through the whole Puget Sound basin.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #188,427
12/28/04 7:33:54 PM
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It gets worse
There is an earthquake as big as the one that just hit sitting just off the coast.
[link|http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/Mining/Geolsurv/Surficial/quake/eq4.htm|http://www.em.gov.bc...ial/quake/eq4.htm]
[link|http://www.pgc.nrcan.gc.ca/seismo/hist/1700.htm|http://www.pgc.nrcan...smo/hist/1700.htm]
[link|http://www.pnsn.org/HAZARDS/CASCADIA/cascadia_event.html|http://www.pnsn.org/...scadia_event.html]
However our current best guess is that the next one is 100-300 years off.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #188,433
12/28/04 8:01:36 PM
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Bring it on
I'm ready.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #188,450
12/29/04 1:51:51 AM
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Riiiiiight.
Indonesia, India, and Sri Lanka spend $0 and lose 50,000 plus.
Therefore, western Washington should spend billions to prevent a recurrence of the 2 deaths we had from the last "killer tsunami". I'm all for paranoia, but not the anthropomorphization of nature.
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Post #188,471
12/29/04 10:45:39 AM
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Hey, did I say spend $$$?
Just mentioning the possibility. Quite frankly, the next big one over here in Seattle == lotsa dead people. The only part up for argument is how those people are going to die.
Yeah, I love living here. :P
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #188,502
12/29/04 3:39:36 PM
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Sorry, but that argument is stupid
Indonesia, India, and Sri Lanka saw repeated tsunamis in the Pacific Ocean and didn't pay attention to the fact that it could happen there. So they suffered major loss of life.
What you're saying is for us to notice, "Hey, that kind of disaster sucks, it can happen here, let's do something about it!" is trivializing what happened there.
That's stupid.
This is not a mountains to molehills comparison. The earthquake waiting off of the coast in the Pacific Northwest is as big or bigger than the one that let go in Thailand. When it last let go in 1700 there was catastrophic (according to the size of populations around then) loss of life both locally and internationally. (Japan in particular has excellent records of the disaster.) There are a lot more people present now, and the expected loss of life is correspondingly higher the next time round. If the expected loss of life is lower than with this tsunami, that is because population densities are not as high as in places like Sri Lanka.
You appear to be saying that we shouldn't try to do anything about this. I'm not entirely sure what your reasoning is. I'm not entirely sure that you have any real reasoning for that.
Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #188,580
12/30/04 2:43:31 PM
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For reference
when the 1700 earthquake was analyzed, based both on Japanese records and physical evidence on the west coast of Canada, they estimate that the size of the tsunami was well over 10m when it came ashore in BC.
Victoria would probably pretty much disappear.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #188,410
12/28/04 3:03:03 PM
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La Palma
[link|http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1279710,00.html|http://www.guardian....4,1279710,00.html]
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
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Post #188,420
12/28/04 5:06:58 PM
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Cumbre Vieja volcano on the island of La Palma
[link|http://www.huttoncommentaries.com/ECNews/GntWavesHitAtlantic.html|Here]: Dr Simon Day, of the Benfield Greig Hazard Research Centre at University College London, UK, believes one flank of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on the island of La Palma, in the Canaries archipelago, is unstable and could plunge into the ocean.
Swiss researchers who have modelled the landslide say half a trillion tonnes of rock falling into the water all at once would create a wave 650 metres high (2,130 feet) that would spread out and travel across the Atlantic at high speed.
The wall of water would weaken as it crossed the ocean, but would still be 40-50 metres (130-160 feet) high by the time it hit land. The surge would create havoc in North America as much as 20 kilometre (12 miles) inland.
[...]
The largest wave in recorded history, witnessed in Alaska in 1958, was caused by the collapse of a towering cliff at Letuya Bay. The resulting wave was higher than any skyscraper on Earth and gouged out soil and trees to a height of 500 metres (1,640) feet) above sea level.
[...] That's a big wave. Of course, the East Coast is also at risk from tsunamis from [link|http://www.manythings.org/voa/00/000602er_t.htm|underwater landslides] caused by huge amounts of methane [link|http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html|gas hydrates].... Cheers, Scott.
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Post #188,475
12/29/04 12:13:20 PM
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Two guys rode that wave
A father and son were in a fishing boar in Letuya Bay. They heard the noise and looked to the head of the bay. When they saw the wave, they said their goodbyes to each other then grabbed the rails. Their boat rose like a cork on the sea, snapped the anchor chain like a thread, and topped the crest. Then they settled back down behind the wave and watched it go out to sea.
Not something most people would do out purpose, but what a thing to have experienced.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #188,438
12/28/04 9:16:01 PM
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Why they are scary
I'm gonna say this once to explain. They are scarier to me than any other disaster or weather phenomenon because there is nowhere to hide or get away to not feel the effect.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #188,455
12/29/04 4:28:39 AM
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Ah I see.. sorta like the Bush Admin, then.
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Post #188,488
12/29/04 1:38:00 PM
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La Palma
One of the Canary islands off the African coast. There is a north-south fault line straight through the island. The western half can let go at any (geological) minute.
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Post #188,403
12/28/04 2:38:48 PM
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Nothing to say...
A guy at work is from the parts of India that got hit the worst.His family, being a relatively well-off, had house in the hills. The people who suffered the most are the poor who could not afford a decent place. As usual, I guess :(
--
Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office?
A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
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Post #188,408
12/28/04 2:55:07 PM
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Horrible. Didn't think anything else needed saying.
We'll be talking more about it during/after relief efforts, I'm sure.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #188,418
12/28/04 4:56:05 PM
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Well, not much to say
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/powell.aid/index.html|CNN] The United Nations' emergency relief coordinator said Tuesday that the international response to the tsunami catastrophe in southern Asia has been "very generous" despite earlier comments in which he called some nations "stingy."
"The international assistance that has come and been pledged from the United States, from Europe and from countries in the region has also been very generous," Jan Egeland said in brief remarks at the world body's headquarters.
"I have been misinterpreted when I yesterday said that my belief that rich countries in general can be more generous. This has nothing to do with any particular country or the response to this emergency. We're in early days and the response has so far been overwhelmingly positive," he added. Jan may be publicly reversing course, but that is only after the US more then doubled it's promise. At $35 million, it's still short of what we spend in Iraq every day though. Other then the political game over countries being stingy, there isn't much to say. This is a huge disaster, one where the lose of life will probably top 50,000 from the direct impact and possibly as much again from the indirect effects of the devastation in the region. Jay
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Post #188,434
12/28/04 8:05:55 PM
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60K dead now.
Beyond words.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #188,439
12/28/04 9:22:14 PM
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And counting.
I bet it will go past 100K when all the remote, smaller, non-tourist areas get counted.
The other thing I have not heard is any damage to shipping. Surely some ships were surprised by the tsunami.
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #188,441
12/28/04 9:33:35 PM
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Shipping not affected
It was under deep water for the most part.
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Post #188,442
12/28/04 10:07:33 PM
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At sea a tsunami is not a big deal
At see a tsunami is a very long, very fast wave. Think 100km long, moving at 700 km/hour. This is long enough that it is governed by the physics of shallow waves even in deep ocean.
So there is a lot of energy, but it is distributed over the entire depth of the ocean and won't really be noticed by ships on the surface.
As the wave approaches land, the energy doesn't diminish, but it compresses. What had been a little wave when that energy is distributed over a column of water 5 km deep is not so little when it is distributed over 100m. As it approaches shore the wave becomes slower and higher (still the same energy, just distributed differently).
When it hits land, the first visible effect is that all of the water disappears (you're seeing the wave attempt to deliver a trough that is 10-30m deep, but there isn't that much water to go away), and then it comes back - fast. Because the land doesn't participate in the fluid motion properly, the water surges up on land and then doesn't drain out when the next one hits. And this continues for as many waves as there are in the wave train. (I think that this one had 2.)
Hopefully you never need to know this, but if you take away anything from this explanation, it should be that if you're standing near the ocean and the water disappears, run!!! If they'd known that, many of the victims of this tidal wave would have survived. Sure it hit a lot of coast. But anywhere that it hit, if you were a few blocks inland when the wave came, you survived.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #188,496
12/29/04 2:57:41 PM
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Water disappearing
I learned of this when reading a historical account of the great Alaska quake. The harbor at Kodiak emptied suddenly leaving all the vessels aground. Then it all surged back - not really a wave, more like a tide that just kept rising.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #188,499
12/29/04 3:26:31 PM
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Hence the name "tidal wave"
It's a wave that looks like a tide, only faster and (typically) much bigger.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #188,531
12/29/04 9:05:06 PM
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There was an article last night on the news...
... that briefly explored the term "tidal wave" vs. "tsunami" and the impact on the world's collective consciousness now that we suddenly have so much footage of it happening.
They mentioned that "tidal wave" is inaccurate, though it is understandable how it came about ("earthquake wave" would be more accurate). It was then mentioned that English doesn't have a word for such a wave: but the Japanese do. It is interesting to note that *all* the newscasts here in Oz are calling it a "tsunami".
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #188,606
12/30/04 6:24:29 PM
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Yep - as I like to point out
there's a reason tsunami is a Japanese word.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #188,513
12/29/04 5:27:12 PM
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was explaining that to people at work
they saw a few video clips and were surprised they didnt see a 300 ft wall of water. Also a note to run, if the sea is normally clear and you see a muddy churn incoming, run.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #188,477
12/29/04 12:15:16 PM
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Not to mention ...
As with Chernyoble, there were probably whole towns where most people didn't know anyone from outside the town. There will be no one to report them missing.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #188,596
12/30/04 4:48:14 PM
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Radio news at 3 PM today
puts the current number at 114K. And they're not done counting.
It's literally an event where the results are incomprehensible.
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #188,605
12/30/04 6:09:04 PM
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As for the 'corporate' response...
Has anyone other than APple actually acknowledged the event has happened? Yesterday I had a quick look at Apple, Dell, Microsoft and Sony - Apple was the the only one of those with a message on their front page, and links to places where you could donate money.
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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Post #188,643
12/30/04 11:31:31 PM
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MoveOn.org has sent a note to all members
re personal contrib, lobbying the US Feds.. and not just waiting for Congress to stumble next into some committee-launch - to study the Problem.
'Course they aren't a Corporation - they be much larger, from one angle of view.
They also have some good ideas/minute: one is to use New Years parties for some collections - mentioning Oxfam, UNICEF, CARE, and the Red Cross/Red Crescent - for starters.
Maybe Billy will treble the US contribution.. this time, not in certificates for XP purchase. Maybe.
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Post #188,645
12/31/04 12:03:11 AM
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The City of Sydney is doing its bit.
The 9pm firework display will start with a minute's silence, and aid agency charity collection points will be set up at the entrances to the main fireworks-viewing areas (eg Opera House forecourt, Circular Quay and so on).
Only eight hours of the year left...!
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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