Post #185,455
11/29/04 5:42:41 PM
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remove the 5th? I dont think so
I have the right to not incriminate myself, fuck you, you think I did it prove it without using me. The day they install that in the courthouse is the day I burn that fucker down. I am a free individual, you do not tread on that freedom lightly.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #185,468
11/29/04 7:03:20 PM
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Why not?
The whole bit about limiting the powers of the state is based on the theory that the US leadership (like all other human organizations), even with all its technology and all its power, is still fallible (i.e. potentially at odds with what obtains in the real world) in some politically relevant sense.
That theory has been losing support in very important places.
Giovanni
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Post #185,523
11/30/04 12:43:37 AM
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Reason for the 5th
I have the right to not incriminate myself, fuck you, you think I did it prove it without using me. The day they install that in the courthouse is the day I burn that fucker down. I am a free individual, you do not tread on that freedom lightly. I don't see what the problem is. If the device is accurate enough, then the motivation for the 5th admendment goes away. The 5th admendment is not based on some inherent human right, rather it is to block a legal abuse of the old British court systems. Under the colonial era British court system, a defendent could be forced to take the stand. If a defendent claimed innocence but was found guilty, a perjury charge was tacked onto whatever crime they where found guilty of. In many cases this perjury charge carried a bigger sentence then the original crime, and was used by the courts to abuse poor and powerless victems. If we had access to an accurate enough lie detector, this problem goes away, and with it, the reason for the 5th admendment. Jay
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Post #185,543
11/30/04 9:31:32 AM
11/30/04 1:35:29 PM
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Wrong
'inherent' doesn't enter into it
the Constitution says no one has to testify against themselves
that is a right
only changing the Bill of Rights changes that
not some device
A
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Edited by andread
Nov. 30, 2004, 01:35:29 PM EST
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Post #185,546
11/30/04 10:22:57 AM
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Re: Wrong
the Constitution says no one has to testify against themselves
that is a right But why does it say that? The right not to testify against yourself is not like the right of free speach or religion. Rather, it is like the right not to have soldiers stationed in your house. It exists to prevent an abusive practice that was common in that era. only changing the Bill of Rights cahnges that
not some device Obviously, removing the 5th admendment would require changing the Constitution. However, there does come a time when doing so is a good idea. And a sufficently accurate lie detector would be such a reason. Jay
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Post #185,555
11/30/04 12:04:29 PM
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Fishing expeditions.
Perhaps. If the use of such a device were entirely voluntary as a right. Evidence not pertinent to whatever legal action 'required' the use of such a device would have to be inadmissable and ineligible for followup - or law-enforcement fishing-trips would become commonplace. It would be worse than house-to house searches. Of course, as long as you have not done anything wrong, or embarrasing, as long no questions are asked like 'have you stopped beating your wife' where almost any answer is incriminating, it's OK to strip that right away from individuals, huh. In a world where no abuses occur, no rights are needed.
Good thing we already have a right against self-incrimination.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #185,558
11/30/04 12:22:21 PM
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What else it would need
If we're going to say that the machine is good enough to convict, then it has to be good enough to exonerate.
What if you've got 40 people who saw someone beat a child to death. Then he takes the machine and passes. Do you let him go? If not, then I don't think you can use it to convict.
If you don't like that standard, than I don't want to take it. If you do like that standard, I'm going to start practicing lying now. I'll get real good at it, too. I've always wanted an excuse to study self-hypnosis.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #185,564
11/30/04 12:37:44 PM
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Depends
It would depend on how accurate the machine actually is.
And being more accruate then eye witnesses isn't actually that high of a standard. A good percent of the cases overturned on DNA evidence arose because an eyewitness picked somebody out of a line up, and then police and DA's selectivly picked evidence to make the case.
Jay
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Post #185,562
11/30/04 12:33:48 PM
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Re: Fishing expeditions.
Evidence not pertinent to whatever legal action 'required' the use of such a device would have to be inadmissable and ineligible for followup - or law-enforcement fishing-trips would become commonplace. I mentioned that above, rules against fishing trips would have to be strengthened. Lawyers might have to explain to the judge how a question is related to the case at hand before posing it to the witness or suspect. But that is actually unrelated to the 5th admendment. Fishing questions are already illegal, but it isn't rigidly enforced. And if such a strong lie detector did exist, rules against fishing would have to apply to everybody taking the stand, not just the suspect. There would be an even bigger problem is such device where cheap enough that the police could use them. An investigation is often a fishing trip by nature, it is unavoidable. Laws that keep police investigations secret would have to be stronger, and police would have to narrow their investigations more sharply. Of course, with such a lie detector, many investigations would end after a few direct questions. Jay
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Post #185,565
11/30/04 12:39:02 PM
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Unrelated?
Fishing trips ARE self-incrimination in this context.
I don't see how it would work - or how it would make the 5th irrelevant. Indeed, I see such a device making the 5th FAR more necessary.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #185,624
11/30/04 5:45:23 PM
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the 5th ammendment is a right
not to be trammeled by machinery. By forcing someone to take this test you ARE forcing them to incriminate themselves thus negating what the 5th ammendment represents, the right to not assist the authorities in their endevours. I may or may not have commited a crime, there is no inherent public interest to be served by forcing me to admit to any crimes. We are individuals who band together to be self governed not an appendage of the body politic.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #185,629
11/30/04 5:53:57 PM
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Re: the 5th ammendment is a right
But using two "m"s in "amendment" is not...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #185,633
11/30/04 6:13:29 PM
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mitpicker
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #185,632
11/30/04 6:12:36 PM
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So many forget.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #185,568
11/30/04 1:42:56 PM
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Amendments?
Aren't those like the Geneva Convention? I mean, haven't they "outlived their usefullness" as our AG says?
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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