Nope.

Post #183,102

11/5/04 2:27:13 PM

Nope.

TEFRA and gasoline. Tefra concentrated on loophole closure and Medicare...gas tax was for SS so they say.

In 1982. Tefra was the "fiscal responsibility act". The gas tax was the "Highway Revenue act".
In 1983 he raised SS taxes - with automatic increases.
In 1984 was the Deficit Reduction act.
In 1985 once again. COBRA.
In 1986 once again. Tax Reform.
In 1987 - whoops, he did it again. Omnibus.

These were all the right thing to do, even if he found it distasteful. He was far more responsible than any of today's Neocons.

So the government is now to blame for >our< excess?

Not at all. Just re-iterating that the money that flushed into the economy was CC/personal loan money - NOT due to "tax cuts that increased federal revenues".

Government spending buys goods and services in the US. Those goods and services are provided by employed folks. Huge increases in need create increases in employment. And before you rail about "no new jobs" you are going to have to prove to me how 5.4% unemployment rates are the end of the world as we know it.

You forget, Bill. I was one of those 'jobs'. I was one of those 'employed'. At 1/10 what I had been making. My discretionary spending was literally zero, remember? Had I gotten sick, I would have lost my job and been out on the street, remember? I DO. It took me YEARS to find another job, and I got it because I was LUCKY. (Don't tell me it's because the economy turned around. I WANT TO GO HOME. I check jobs in NJ every day. I miss my family and friends) Don't tell me that because the top percentile have made a lot of money, the economy is great - it's not. Or do YOU think that that 1 percentile can (or will) spend as much as the other 99% would if they had money they COULD spend? How many houses will each of those top earners live in, Bill? 99? 98? No? How many cars? 99? 98? No? How many TVs? Without a market to sell to, our economy will COLLAPSE. Without a manufacturing base to sell things to the outside world, it may never rise again.

And THAT'S not even taking into consideration the record number of defaults and bankruptcies this economy has spawned.

And - let's see - how many jobs has the 'increased manufacturing' spawned by this war created? The taxes on those salaries, and the sales taxes together offset the cost of the war itself by HOW much? But spending on this war is supposed to be GOOD for the economy?

if something can be done to shore up the system till its my turn to get my money (back) out of it...more power to him.

If you think the point of this is to 'shore up the system' - you didn't read my initial post.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #183,120

by bepatient

11/5/04 4:01:23 PM

Regardless of #

Reagan operated at huge deficits. That money goes into the economy. Availability of money is essentially a closed system (unless you just elect to print more...which Germany did...didn't work too well).

Your mixing my points also.

Example

Not at all. Just re-iterating that the money that flushed into the economy was CC/personal loan money - NOT due to "tax cuts that increased federal revenues"

Personal credit certainly didn't hurt (but the huge growth in that came in the 90s when the economy was great...right?) And that doesn't explain the ww2 spike. Government spending can and has driven the economy out of recession over and over and over again.

And you still are trying to qualify these things as good or bad and attach them to this administration as such. Thats crap. I know what you went through. Do you claim it now to be the fault of GW Bush? Manufacturing jobs have been fleeing this country for 40 years. Are you saying now that >that< is also the fault of GW Bush? You are employed in the service sector. Insurance companies were supposedly huge benefits of his policies. If all that shit was >his< fault (or even true) you should have had huge opportunity.

You can fault the system all you like. I'll likely agree with you until you start assigning it to one party or another. That is crap...and you know it to be.

In this election the choice was heads or tails of the same quarter. Any positive attributes of either candidate were completely eliminated by their downside. Kerry's wife owes her fortune to the first company I ever heard outsource jobs. Heinz moved hundreds of high paying jobs out of Pittsburgh to Ireland. Do you think that man of privilege understands anything about what is needed in West Philly to end their problems? Clinton "felt their pain"...but the only people he made rich were folks with money in the market already. No huge chunks of manufacturing jobs were created on his watch either.

This is systemic. As long as we feel the need to create layer upon layer of regulation that makes it more and more expensive for things to be made in the US then we will continue to lose jobs in manufacturing. Nearly 20% of cost in many states is just >state< taxes and fees...and thats before we hit the effects of spurious regulations and necessary insurances against bullshit liability cases. (coffee anyone?)

Additionally, we're just plain better at putting crap together than we used to be. Automation has made HUGE strides in the past 40 years. Factories I knew needed 1000 employees to run full shifts now need 300...and most of them need full engineering degrees to maintain the control room equipment.

On a percentage basis, we're going to lose these jobs anyway as money shifts away from durable mfr'ed goods purchases to service purchases...which is one of the largest factors in the decline in jobs since the late 80s.

One other factor that could help short term is to depress the US dollar on the world market. Carrying huge debt may just do that...at a disastrous effect to teh rest of the economy...but hey...we'll have those manufacturing jobs.

And I expected better than to listen to the 1% kool-aid here. No the one percent won't live in 100 houses. They also aren't the ones that bought all the houses that are currently owned at the moment. That one % shoulders 20% of the income tax burden and control 35 % of the wealth. Move that down to Top 20% and its aligned with the tax burden. Income taxes are the 80/20 rule. 80% of the taxpayers pay 20% of the taxes. (technically 80/28...but it doesn't work with the metaphor ;-) while the rest comes from those vast wealthy folks.

Look at the big picture long enough to get pissed of at ALL sides and we may begin to understand each other here.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #183,135

by imric

11/5/04 5:11:59 PM

I don't give a damn for Democrats -

OR Republicans. I HATE the Neoconservative party. And YOU know THAT.

Deficit spending is BAD. THAT is and was my point throughout this. It is BAD for the economy - especially, but not exclusively in the long run. BAD for the country. BAD for EVERYBODY.

As for the WWII spike - I guess the economy was so good that people couldn't afford meat, butter, rubber or chocolate. If the economy was so good, we should have been able to import these goods - but we couldn't. All our capital and effort was tied up in the manufacture of war material. I know that manufacturers got huge orders - where are those orders now? How many plants are coming out of mothballs? None? WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS? Go ahead, convince me!

Additionally, we're just plain better at putting crap together than we used to be. Automation has made HUGE strides in the past 40 years. Factories I knew needed 1000 employees to run full shifts now need 300...and most of them need full engineering degrees to maintain the control room equipment.

Yeah, we're so good at it there's a trade deficit. We're so good at it that we look to the east to produce inexpensive goods. The laborers there must ALL have engineering degrees.

On a percentage basis, we're going to lose these jobs anyway as money shifts away from durable mfr'ed goods purchases to service purchases...which is one of the largest factors in the decline in jobs since the late 80s.

Yeah - we don't actually produce much anymore - we just service ourselves. Ya think that might be evidence of a sick or decaying economy? No? Tell me how such a setup DOESN'T just concentrate wealth inexorably to the top few.

Any positive attributes of either candidate were completely eliminated by their downside

No. Bush is an IDIOT with delusions of godlike infallibility, and no sense of honesty or responsibility toward the Constitution he supposedly 'protects'. Shit, man, Nixon was a better President - even WITH the wage-price freeze! He was more honest, even considering Watergate! (Do you honestly think anyone would EVER hear about the tapes in Bush's administration?) I would vote for Koko the Gorilla over that nutball - and be confident I was making the right choice for a candidate far more qualified than the one we got!

huge growth in that came in the 90s when the economy was great

Let's see - what did the President do to improve the economy for that 'boom'. Did he ACTUALLY trim government fat and reduce spending. Did he preside of the greatest reduction of government jobs in history? Was the budget balanced? Was it huge amounts of deficit spending that accomplished this? Was that President more of a Republican than the Neocons that claim the Republican 'legacy' now?

No the one percent won't live in 100 houses. They also aren't the ones that bought all the houses that are currently owned at the moment.

Oh - so forcloseures AREN'T at record levels? Home ownership is actually within the grasp of the rest of the 99%? AFFORDABLE new homes are being built to accomodate the need for housing and young people really AREN'T forced to double and triple up in houses and apartments to survive? Tha's not MY experience, my friend.

That one % shoulders 20% of the income tax burden and control 35 % of the wealth.

Really? So 35% of the wealth doesn't incur 35% of the taxes? Or is it that income drops as wealth increases? Sounds like that 1% need another tax break. We can just increase the deficit to give it to them, though.

Further, I'd like to see where you get that % - it doesn't match figures I recall seeing - I'm at work or I'd research it more completely. Maybe later - but I have plans for tonight...

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #183,141

by bepatient

11/5/04 5:35:30 PM

Re: I don't give a damn for Democrats -

[link|http://www.polarizationandconflict.org/papersanseb/AmbrosioSS.PDF|http://www.polarizat...eb/AmbrosioSS.PDF]

as long as you stick with the non-partisan bashing of the setup, we're cool. Ain't dealing with this hate speech, woe-is-me cause of this one election bullshit. It ain't speeding up or slowing down or changing anything.

Wanna know my opinion. Just like with his father...had a candidate like Clinton been there I would have voted for him (Like Kerry...I voted for him before I voted against him). You know how much I love Bill.

This time we had a choice of "I say it wrong and do it wrong consistently" versus the "man of every position that has a plan to fix everything" (i got this hangnail John..can you help...WELL I'M sorry about that and maybe Dicks lesbian daughter can help you)

Hopeful that the other side understands this issue...and that mainstream can be consolidated away from the fringes. 3rd party idea..."Real People".

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #183,214

by imric

11/6/04 9:11:29 AM

Woe is me?

Woe is U.S.

The fact remains that the Neocons are not responsible leaders.

The fact remains that they are spending us into oblivion.

The fact remains that the snake-oil 'remedies' they have tried to inject into our ailing economy have not worked; they DO NOT work. This economy hurts all but a few; and mark my words - it WILL hurt all but a TINY minority before the Neocons are done.

The fact remains that the Neocons have no regard for the principles this country was founded on; they are blind to truths that were "self-evident" to our Founders.

-----------------

I believe in a LOT of Libertarian principles - but the last time we allowed business the amount of latitude that the neocons want to grant them, workers ended up rioting with shotguns. We ended up wth unions that were TOO powerful.

The Neocons do not learn from history. If you look to thier Chief Executive, they actively RESIST learning.

So - "Hate speech"? Hardly. I voted. I earned the RIGHT to speak my mind; and I will until that right is taken from me (probably to 'fight terrorism').

I DO hate the Neocons - the corruption, the willful ignorance, the hypocricy, the foolishness, and the cold, small-minded mean-ness that characterizes both the Party's 'principles' and it's individual members.

What's not to hate? Should I stop hating those things because 'they' won? Should I turn a blind eye to those qualities in our leaders just because they are in power?

I DON'T THINK SO.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #183,903

by Ashton

11/11/04 11:52:36 PM

Thou sayest

quite more concisely than moi.

These execrable wretches are the stuff of witch-burnings in a (not That much) earlier time. Faith in these craven mouths - has become ordinary drug-induced-like fantasy - and we Know Which one: these suckers imagine they are "Helping Gawd" to produce all that LSD-crap from Revelations: this from the Ruling Junta over the former Republic .. however limping-along that was, via utterly corrupt PAC-preemption of citizen-votes + the other colors of sleaze that goes with the Bizness-circumscribed intellect.

When you've decided that "the Earth just doesn't much matter" - it's an OK sentiment for a one, atop his Idaho compound with gun-towers + Bibles. But when it's the titular Government operating upon scripted delusion - the sane folk had best begin fucking ORGANIZING for the NEXT election in 2 years; fully FUNCTIONAL for the ejection of the loonies in 4.. (if we make it that far sans our nukes getting put into 'anti-terrorism service' -- atop one of those bunkers/countries we haven't the troops left to invade).

See ya on the barricades, if there're enough folk with gumption to start building. I'm too old to drag the tree trunks, but I can still fire a possible, specially with them transistorized weapons of mass delusion. (My paint balls can have a couple decades of Pharmacology lore incorporated; say - scopolamine hydrobromide? Ya don't need them RPG thingies.)

Ashton Sinclair Lewis LLC

Post #183,914

by imric

11/12/04 6:27:05 AM

11/12/04 6:29:43 AM

I prefer squirt-guns filled with DMSO + LSD to paint balls.

I suspect it would be useless, though. Accept the inevitable.

The Republic will be swept away, in favor of Empire; we follow the footsteps of the Romans.

Which is REALLY funny, considering the fact that our 'elected' leaders are nominally Christian.

DAMN. WE HAVE TO GET OFF THIS ROCK!

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric Nov. 12, 2004, 06:29:43 AM EST

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