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New Honor
...was there no personal concept akin to points raised by Scott, others in this thread?


Which points, specifically?

Understanding of "personal" behavior in that age/place revolves around the embedding of the individual in an honor-hungry continuum: everyone had their superiors and their inferiors. You expected (and were expected by others) to bring honor to your local superiors and get honor from your inferiors. You fought for honor only with your equals. Nobody "had honor" outside of that embedding in a social group. Dishonoring your superior often took a lot of work to "recoup" the damage. Some patrons used the social tactic of forgiveness when dealing with a transgressing inferior; the idea being that they have so much honor it's not worth getting even over; therefore, they are ascribed more honor by the community. This could backfire, of course, just like it does for Microsoft every day. They are foolish because they try to claim honor they have not earned/been ascribed.

OT a little bit, the word "shame" often comes up in the same discussion: in a lot of societies, shame is a good thing--"having shame" means knowing your place in the social hierarchy. It is the direct opposite of being a fool. Only we could take that concept and make it an evil to be abolished. ;)
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A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly by the chain of their own ideas;...despair and time eat away the bonds of iron and steel, but they are powerless against the habitual union of ideas, they can only tighten it still more; and on the soft fibres of the brain is founded the unshakable base of the soundest of Empires."

Jacques Servan, 1767
New Ah.. said well enough that
I begin to feel the shackles of serfdom creeping upon me: imagine Billy as Laird!

(Consequently.. who would not want to ride off and slay Infidels vs fawning over a Billy and his lieutenant Bally - at home?). No I cannot guess if that was a major incentive for Crusades - but it would have been mine.

I must ponder and revise all recalled history - a cinch for the massively talented and humble..


Cheers,

Ashton
who - via some sort of reincarnation model - prolly died repeatedly at ~17, for insubordination :(
     Thoughts on forgiveness? - (Another Scott) - (45)
         Forgiveness vs restitution - (Brandioch)
         Forgiveness is wonderful; just get even first :) -NT - (hnick)
         Not a false distinction, but is it a worthwhile one? ;) - (tseliot) - (10)
             Yes, I wasn't thinking of legal issues. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                 Not a question of punishment, but of power imbalance - (tseliot) - (8)
                     Interesting historical context. Thanks. - (Another Scott)
                     Heh.. agonistic as in - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Honor - (tseliot) - (1)
                             Ah.. said well enough that - (Ashton)
                     Re: Sincerity & Forgiveness - (brettj) - (3)
                         Value to me? or to our imaginary 1st-century folk? - (tseliot) - (2)
                             Fascinating - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 Great! I don't mind disagreement... - (tseliot)
         Forgiveness is divine. - (brettj)
         A possible distinction. - (Ashton) - (1)
             reminds me an irish elephant - (boxley)
         The best example of how I think about forgiveness - (boxley) - (1)
             Thanks. - (Another Scott)
         I don't hold with forgiveness - (ben_tilly) - (20)
             Clartification... - (ChrisR) - (14)
                 All of the above - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                     Cheese! whats yer thoughts on TP up or down? :) -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                         You really want to know? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                             Well small chirrun have the same effect - (boxley)
                     Not assigning fault and the relation to forgiveness. - (brettj) - (9)
                         I think you missed my point - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                             Re: I think you missed my point - (brettj) - (7)
                                 Um, not quite - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     Life is sorta like an onion - (brettj) - (5)
                                         I am mixed on the Asimov quote - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                             Karma? - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 Which type of karma? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                     Between the two, the latter. - (Ashton)
                                             Just being aware of the question is worthwhile. - (brettj)
             Thanks. And a little story. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                 To a woman yes - (boxley)
                 Put it this way... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                     Thanks. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                     Thanks for some lucid prose. - (Ashton)
         Compassionate feelings that support a willingness to forgive - (brettj) - (4)
             Another incentive for developing that - (Ashton)
             Yes, that occurred to me, too. - (static) - (2)
                 Maybe that's the real question? Who needs forgiveness more? - (brettj) - (1)
                     I think that is situational. - (static)
         My thoughts - (orion)

The spice must flow.
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