Re: Sincerity & Forgiveness

Post #18,165 by brettj 11/13/01 9:32:31 PM Reply	Re: Sincerity & Forgiveness Thanks for helping me to further understand what Ben was getting at. I knew he was on-the-mark but didn't exactly understand why. But even if someone is not sincere in caring about being forgiven, there is still value in giving forgiveness to them, even if they never knew you forgave them, isn't there?
Post #18,273 by tseliot 11/14/01 1:28:46 PM Reply	Value to me? or to our imaginary 1st-century folk? But even if someone is not sincere in caring about being forgiven, there is still value in giving forgiveness to them, even if they never knew you forgave them, isn't there? For the Biblical authors and their contemporaries, no. Forgiveness without recognition is nonsensical, in the same way that "+4^=" is a nonsensical arithmetic statement. In the extreme case, it's obvious that those who do not acknowledge God's forgiving acts are not going to be recipients of his mercy. Hence the parable (of the unforgiving servant)--one way you show your "acknowledgement" is by showing mercy to others. In the "modern" era, it's easy to confuse "forgiving" (the act) with "forgiveness" (the mood or tendency). We don't seem to be able to act without predisposing ourselves (cf Ashton's reference to Jaynes), and we generally prefer the predisposition to the action; another way to say that is, "but he meant* well...", or in this case, "I'm really a forgiving person, but circumstances deny me the opportunity to demonstrate that in this particular situation..." We "forgive" then, but not in action, only to soothe our own egos (which obviously need a lot of soothing) in an attempt to maintain a coherent persona** we can live with. * Thank you very much, Mr. Kant. >:( ** Or, for Ash, if you're reading this, a "meta-actor" a la bicamerality. :) --------------------------------- A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly by the chain of their own ideas;...despair and time eat away the bonds of iron and steel, but they are powerless against the habitual union of ideas, they can only tighten it still more; and on the soft fibres of the brain is founded the unshakable base of the soundest of Empires." Jacques Servan, 1767
Post #18,288 by ben_tilly 11/14/01 3:11:15 PM Reply	Fascinating And to put the conflict into perspective, it was the older sense of forgiveness that RMS used when he plead for copyright holders to [link\|http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-05-001-21-OP-LF-KE\|forgive KDE] their GPL transgressions past. However the reaction of most people was to understand what RMS meant in terms of more modern notions of forgiveness, and get upset about it. The other thing I find fascinating is the amount to which people make their notions of Deity in their own images. As I already said, I don't much relate to the modern notions of forgiveness. Similarly I don't really relate to the society in which the older notion came from. But I can see how to someone from that society it would be natural to think of God as being like someone in power, only more so. With that in mind I much better understand the desire for sacrifices, and the concept of begging for forgiveness for sins committed, even if said being may arguably be ultimately at fault for said sins (see the problem of Evil). Note that understanding does not mean any feeling within myself of wanting to go out and believe, but at least the descriptions make more sense than they did before. Cheers, Ben
Post #18,302 by tseliot 11/14/01 4:35:04 PM Reply	Great! I don't mind disagreement... ...I just hate it when it's for the wrong reasons (e.g. poor interpretation) :D Both applications you pointed out were very appropriate, btw. And yes, God (or gods) were usually at the top of those social hierarchies. --------------------------------- A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly by the chain of their own ideas;...despair and time eat away the bonds of iron and steel, but they are powerless against the habitual union of ideas, they can only tighten it still more; and on the soft fibres of the brain is founded the unshakable base of the soundest of Empires." Jacques Servan, 1767

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