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New Reasonableness is in the eye of the beholder
A common intellectual trap is to confuse that which we happen to believe with the epitome of logic and reasonableness. When it comes to religion, all sides tend to do that.

Here are a series of sayings, going from ones we agree on to ones we are likely to differ on sharply.

  • The cosmology laid out by fundamentalist Christianity is discredited by science, and is completely unconnected in content.
  • Many scientists, both past and present, have been strongly motivated by their religious beliefs. When you add in scientists with quasi-religious beliefs (for instance beliefs that many physicists hold about the existence of a GUT), this number goes up sharply.
  • Science's foundation was made possible by a number of religious and quasi-religious beliefs.
  • There are areas of the human experience, starting with the question of how conciousness works, which are unaddressed by science and which are probably unaddressable by science. (Note, science can address questions about what a person will do, what they will report, etc. I don't believe it can ever address the feeling that you exist.)
  • There are many religious people who believe that the sense of self arises from having a soul granted by God. If you believe this, then God is not a superfluous assumption.
  • Atheism is not a logical consequence of science and the scientific method. Science may lead us to reject a variety of religious beliefs. But it does not address several questions which are central to science.

Now as I say, I think you are likely to disagree with my final statements. But before you proceed to lecture and disagree, I should point out that I have a pretty decent handle on how science works. The position that I have laid out above is one that I have actually thought about quite a bit, and it is what I have concluded despite the fact that the conclusion runs counter to my own gut beliefs. (I am, after all, an atheist.)

Fire away if you wish. But I think I will let this thread sit with this post. I don't really have any new points that I can think of to make on this topic...

Cheers,
Ben
New My take.
#1. Science cannot disprove the existance of any god.

#2. Science cannot prove the existance of any god.

This is because science is only capable of measuring reproducable phenomena.

!BUT!

Science can show that certain events could not have happened without divine interference.

Such as the world wide flood of the Bible.

Which is the point I usually diverge from the religious ones. Anything can be claimed, with divine intervention. At which point, I don't see the sense of discussing "science" with them.
     Troglodytes alive in Alabama. - (a6l6e6x) - (56)
         S'OK Massa: I'd like to see some stickers too - - (Ashton)
         I put one like that on my copy of Meyer's OOSC2 - (tablizer) - (1)
             Math got Gallileo[sic?] into trouble - (jb4)
         Whilst it remains controversial... - (static) - (47)
             But it's *not* controversial. - (pwhysall) - (4)
                 Well, no it is, actually. - (static) - (1)
                     No it isn't. - (pwhysall)
                 Re: But it's *not* controversial. - (a6l6e6x)
                 Correction: - (tonytib)
             It is NOT controversial - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                 It's a M/Soft kinda thing, isn't it? - (Ashton)
             And out of the woodwork they come! - (static) - (38)
                 "Problems", sure, but that's not 'coz it's "controversial". - (CRConrad) - (26)
                     I guess it's very POV specific. Makes it hard to agree. -NT - (static) - (23)
                         Nope, it's quite simple, non-POV-specific, and universal: - (CRConrad) - (22)
                             That is going too far - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                 Sigh... Bend over backwards in your own posts; dont tack... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                     Reasonableness is in the eye of the beholder - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                         My take. - (Brandioch)
                             Creation as a scientific theory - (tablizer) - (17)
                                 But how does the Great Turtle move? - (Silverlock) - (16)
                                     Waiting for Val. - (Brandioch)
                                     In the beginning, there was this turtle... - (bepatient) - (13)
                                         Or was it.. - (bepatient)
                                         I was hoping there was at least... - (jb4) - (11)
                                             Check your PBS listings for end November, early December - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                 WWWWWOOOOWWWWW!! - (jb4) - (9)
                                                     I already have it programmed to tape :-) - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                         If ya think of it BeeP, please give a shout later.. - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                             I shall try to remember... - (bepatient) - (6)
                                                                 "Deep in December, it's nice to remember..." - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                     Damn CRC.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                         Afghan Hell, Afghan Hell, Bombing all the way... - (Meerkat)
                                                                 So.......when is it??? -NT - (jb4) - (2)
                                                                     Oh...alright... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                         Thank you...So marked! -NT - (jb4)
                                     The Turtle Moves! - (ben_tilly)
                     I dunno, Sir Cyclic... - (jb4) - (1)
                         I can see you didn't see: "Brassed Off" !! (ie: wrong!) - (Ashton)
                 Better asked, how can I put this? - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                     Well there is a way for the earth to be new - (boxley) - (1)
                         Every new toy is made out of old stuff. :-) - (ben_tilly)
                     Somewhat OT: world flood - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                         There are no shortage of candidates... - (ben_tilly)
                     You're arguing the wrong point. - (static) - (5)
                         Some of the conclusions that *what* arrives at? - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                             Yep. Precisely. In spades. Most definitely. - (static) - (3)
                                 "IWETHEY's Terrible Horde of Enigmatic Yammerers." Proof! - (Ashton)
                                 Quite possibly... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                     Ah. Noted. - (static)
             Let's take a different tack... - (Another Scott)
         Agreement from the Annals of Improbable Research - (drewk) - (4)
             OT for Drew - (Silverlock) - (3)
                 Sure - (drewk) - (2)
                     Not a size problem - (Silverlock) - (1)
                         It's just forwarding - (drewk)

Only Olaf Stapledon ever succeeded on this kind of scale, and Olaf Stapledon is dead.
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