Then whats a lie about what I said?

Post #179,286 by Nightowl 10/14/04 1:52:31 PM Reply	Then whats a lie about what I said? I got my data from facts. I've read everything I can about Columbine, I've cut out and read and kept every school shooting since then. I don't know the answer to the question you posed, because so far I haven't come across any data about it. So tell me what I said in that post that is a lie? Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #179,289 by drewk 10/14/04 1:56:29 PM Reply	Why? I've read everything I can about Columbine, I've cut out and read and kept every school shooting since then. What's your morbid fascination with death? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #179,296 by Nightowl 10/14/04 2:23:56 PM Reply	Are you sure you want to know? You might be surprised by the answer. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #179,301 by pwhysall 10/14/04 2:42:46 PM Reply	Yes. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]
Post #179,304 by Nightowl 10/14/04 2:54:47 PM Reply	Okay here goes. First, I've always been fascinated by man's inhumanity to man. It's something I've studied over the years starting with Hitler's Germany, actually, when in High School, I first discovered how inhumane one human being could actually be to another. So I basically delved into it, trying to understand it, although I don't think that's possible. You get some understandings of what drives this person or that person to behave in such an inhumane manner, but not any complete understanding because it simply doesn't exist. I even wrote a novel exploring this concept, but I never published it. I was given honorable mention by Dell, but never pushed it farther. Then, when Columbine happened, I read things as usual, trying to "understand" it. And what I discovered scared and shocked me. I discovered that the reasons Kliebold and Harris gave for their actions echoed my very exact thoughts in high school. I found I actually related to them in regarding this. This made me start thinking. I was also bullied, treated bad in school, I was stuffed into trash cans, locked into lockers, beaten up, etc. etc. I didn't fight back. But it got me to wondering... what if I had? If I had been born into a different type of family, one that advocated violence as a response, one that possessed weapons, or encouraged fighting... would I have turned out the same way? It really gave me something to think about. So now when I read the school shootings, I read deeper, I find out what the kid was thinking, and I feel sorry for the child that he/she was unable to find another way to "fight back". I consider bullying in school to be one of the worst things a child must endure, it causes depression, it causes anger to fester inside, and often even causes them to committ suicide. So I guess in a way, I keep reading these cases, hoping to find a better understanding, and hoping maybe someday children will find another way to cope with bullying, other than my way, (taking it) and Columbine's shooters' way, (killing them). Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #179,307 by pwhysall 10/14/04 3:15:56 PM Reply	Oh, THAT. You should get together with Jon Katz sometime. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]
Post #179,320 by Nightowl 10/14/04 3:59:53 PM 10/14/04 4:00:54 PM Reply	He sounds fascinating Excerpt from an article: "The truth is," Katz wrote, "many more kids kill themselves then [sic] others, often because of bullying, a subject about which Ashcroft had nothing to say. The question really is whether vicious kids and hostile school environments are turning kids into killers." He's right. I tried suicide over and over in high school. I stood on top of a building that I'd climbed up to the highest ledge of, and watched the majority of the students below who saw me there, yell "jump jump" A friend who had followed me up there grabbed me before I could. Bullying is a big deal. It isn't just kids being kids, not when it goes to extremes well beyond the safety zones. Nightowl >8# Edit: fixed punctuation "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Oct. 14, 2004, 04:00:54 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #179,322 by pwhysall 10/14/04 4:07:56 PM Reply	Told ya so. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]
Post #179,361 by Ashton 10/14/04 7:35:52 PM Reply	Fair enough. Well, Brenda - you have the direct experience and you tried to do some homework; that's the kernel of actual 'science' - though we see that the soft ones like psych and socio - are proof that logic just isn't enough, when dealing with homo saps. You're as entitled to an opinion towards "some plan" as anyone else here. As suggested though.. you may share with millions of 'innumerate' Muricans - a rather shaky knowledge of how we lie (even to selves) via statistics. Good recent example is given in this thread. Dunno if there's much hope of the species ever evading its reptile brain base - after all, look at the mission of the PNAC (a New Murican Empire\ufffd) ie all the President's Men. We see that the reptile-base cannot be reliably out'grown'- note how few actual 'adults' one encounters/year. Even at the Top. The kids are just closer to that primal influence. Then too, today they are exposed to more noise/day than could be imagined - a mere 20 years ago; distracted by infinite toys (and the Need to get More of these), baggy-pantsed in perfect conformity aka 'rebellion'; often drugged for brand new Pharmchem-defined dis-eases, ie - WTF did we expect! when we "allowed it to become?" necessary for Both parents to work, now more often in multiple jobs -- in lieu of parental oversight and actual teaching-by-example, "nurturing of the young"? Both: that is, occasionally today. Compound the above difficulties for the growing ranks of One. Trying for creation of any more official Authorities - would just play into the Ashcroftizing of further Constitutional rights and principles; another pattern we can see, looking backwards. Face it, then: we [the species] just aren't Smart enough, or dedicated enough.. especially as our attention spans weaken from the constant cacophony of ads, noise, bizness-lies and the other intentional Lying in a day. Be grateful that only a few carry out their fantasies! (After all, a decent respect for Gaia, for the survival of the Earth as a viable place: would hasten the departure! of this over-populating, massively polluting, now-more-suicidal species.. as rarely produces an authentic Adult, just mainly - perpetual teens..) Looking on the Bwight Side, Ashton
Post #179,399 by Nightowl 10/15/04 12:46:36 AM Reply	Re: Fair enough. Well, Brenda - you have the direct experience and you tried to do some homework; that's the kernel of actual 'science' - though we see that the soft ones like psych and socio - are proof that logic just isn't enough, when dealing with homo saps. Thanks Ashton. This is a topic that I do my best to be informed about, mainly because I am indeed interested in gaining more understanding about it. You're as entitled to an opinion towards "some plan" as anyone else here. As suggested though.. you may share with millions of 'innumerate' Muricans - a rather shaky knowledge of how we lie (even to selves) via statistics. Good recent example is given in this thread. Well, I still don't see that my data was all that flawed, because it was factual, it just only covered one aspect of the issue. But that was the only aspect I was trying to cover. That particular data was collected in a study of all the school shootings across the country over a period of time from Columbine until last year. I don't remember all the info from it, but I remember that particular statistic. I probably have the article somewhere, buried in one of my school shooting files. But the bottom line is I was only stating one statistic, not covering all. I would be very interested though, in finding a study of the kids that said it and didn't do it, but of course that would be hard, because you would have to exclude all the ones that said it and were caught and or stopped. How would one know whether said child would have carried it out in actuality or not? Someone tried once if I recall correctly, in the 80's, to do a study on children/teens who threatened suicide, vs children/teens who did it, but they ran into the same problem. How to include in the statistics the ones who said it and were stopped. Once again, there was no way to know if they would have carried it through. Even when the kids/teens were asked, they weren't sure themselves. The kids are just closer to that primal influence. Then too, today they are exposed to more noise/day than could be imagined - a mere 20 years ago; distracted by infinite toys (and the Need to get More of these), baggy-pantsed in perfect conformity aka 'rebellion'; often drugged for brand new Pharmchem-defined dis-eases, ie - WTF did we expect! when we "allowed it to become?" necessary for *Both parents to work, now more often in multiple jobs -- in lieu of parental oversight and actual teaching-by-example, "nurturing of the young"? I agree here, that dual working parents did indeed provide less parental supervision and more freedom for the children/teens to traverse down the more dangerous paths. Unfortunately, in today's economy, it's become necessary if not required, for both parents to work in order to provide adequately for their families. And many parents are single-parents, also struggling to make ends meet, and with little time to spend chaperoning or supervising their children. Trying for creation of any more official Authorities - would just play into the Ashcroftizing of further Constitutional rights and principles; another pattern we can see, looking backwards. Well, something I didn't make clear was it didn't necessarily have to be a law enforcement program. It could be something run by each school district, or even by the state in conjunction with the school district. Maybe the schools could set up programs to help these troubled kids/teens when they are spotted or found out. Maybe they could provide counselors, (not pumped up with drugs, just given someone to talk to), and some support systems to enable the child to feel less helpless in the face of the bullying and other treatment. Maybe they would even be able to initiate a bully awareness program, something to enlighten the students about how bullying makes people feel and how badly the victims take it at times, and how to spot someone who's feeling bullied or mistreated. Basically, start at the school level where the parents aren't available to watch over the kids, and involve the parents where they are able to be involved, such as parent-child counseling, or awareness programs for the parents as well as the children. I'm not really just saying another form of lockup would work. Maybe it would, maybe not, but the main thing is to find a system that identifies these "cries for help" from these troubled children and to provide that help which they cry for. I've seen such school-run systems actually work and make a difference in some schools that elected to take a role in lessening bullying and offering support. It would just be a matter of finding a plan that would work for either all the schools or maybe tailor making plans for each one. I just don't see what expelling the children and or arresting them does, they will wind up back out on the street with even less parental/teacher supervision, and or out on parole or Juvenile hall with nothing learned. Maybe I am dreaming, but at least it's a positive sort of dream, rather than to lock these kids and their lives away and throw out the key. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #179,290 by hnick 10/14/04 1:57:54 PM Reply	Umm.. You were supposed to infer "Statistics" from the elipsis. It is a very standard saying. The suggestion was that you were drawing the incorrect conclusion by incorrectly using the data. You were not being accused of being a liar. At least I don't think so. Feel free to carry on about the proper use of the data. I don't think that it will break down to a black and white solution, so there will probably be no consensus at the end. But if you enjoy that sort of thing...
Post #179,297 by Nightowl 10/14/04 2:25:28 PM Reply	I was just questioning jb4's subject line, he called it Lies, Damn lies and.. And I just wanted to know why. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #179,299 by jbrabeck 10/14/04 2:40:18 PM Reply	Just guessing But figures can be made to show anything positive or negative. Figures don't lie, but their presentation without the supporting documentation can mislead... Kerry: We've lost 1.6 million jobs (doesn't count jobs created) Bush: We've created 1.3 million jobs (doesn't address fact that most are lower paying jobs. Both figures are "correct" and both figures "lie". A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #179,300 by Nightowl 10/14/04 2:42:11 PM Reply	Ah ok Thanks for explaining that. Like I said, there is only data that shows that 9 out of ten people who did participate in a school shooting, told someone in advance or wrote it down. I would be interested however, in data about how many talked about it and didn't do it. That would be a fascinating study. I just haven't seen any data to that effect. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #179,303 by jb4 10/14/04 2:47:13 PM Reply	What. He. Said. jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT

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