'Nosy' students avert possible school shooting

10/13/04 9:00:15 AM

Thoughtcrime!

Doubleplusungood.

Post #179,072

10/13/04 9:45:52 AM

Not quite

According to a news release from the county attorney's office, Deutsch had told another student about plans to bring guns to the school and to shoot staff members and students sometime in the past two weeks. According to investigators, Deutsch threatened to hurt that student -- a longtime friend -- if he refused to participate in the shootings.

When idle thought/wishful thinking, which we all do, changes into a "plan in preparation" should preventative action be taken? It's "easy" to disrupt a "plan" to rob a bank by increasing surveilance at the bank, but how would you prevent a kid from carrying out a plan to kill fellow students and faculity in a school of 2500?

The difference between "I wish x were dead" to "here's how I'm going to kill x".

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #179,101

10/13/04 12:35:56 PM

Absolutely!

After all, we need to get the criminals BEFORE they commit a crime!

There's a principle at stake here - that of "innocent until proven guilty".

Being an angsty teenager who plots the demise of everyone around them isn't and shouldn't be a crime.

Post #179,117

10/13/04 1:38:26 PM

Question

At what point do I become a criminal?

I decide I want to blow up building x.
I make my plans.
Hire my assistants.
Buy the explosives.
Load everything into the trucks.
Park trucks at loading docks under target building.
Relocate myself to a position 2 km away from target building.
Detonate explosives and watch building collapse.

At each step I inform local police of my actions. When can they pick me up? Until I've detonated, it's still only a "plan".

From the original article In the letter, Henton wrote: "The threats, which included the use of weapons in our school, were deemed credible by police investigators. I want you to know that our staff responded in the appropriate manner by immediately enacting our threat assessment plan, notifying police and cooperating with the police investigation."

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #179,120

10/13/04 1:45:36 PM

Right when you start DOING things.

That'd be at "Hire my assistants", assuming you were up-front about what you were hiring them for.

Be careful what you wish for. You're posting a question on the internet that could be construed as cunningly concealed terrorist research.

Post #179,121

10/13/04 1:47:44 PM

Does this constitute "doing something"?

According to investigators, Deutsch threatened to hurt that student -- a longtime friend -- if he refused to participate in the shootings.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #179,125

10/13/04 1:55:11 PM

Not in my book.

If (at the age of 16 or so) a friend of mine had offered to hurt me if I didn't go along with some hare-brained scheme or other involving WERLD DOMINATION, I'd have been inclined to advise them that such behaviour is deserving of a swift kick in the slats.

Post #179,130

by jb4

10/13/04 2:00:02 PM

10/13/04 3:57:03 PM

So, in your world...

...a threat doesn't constitute "doing something"?

jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

Edited by jb4 Oct. 13, 2004, 03:57:03 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #179,140

10/13/04 2:50:41 PM

Let's temper this with pragmatism, eh?

This ridiculous "zero tolerance" approach is the same thing that gets children excluded from school for [link|http://www.sptimes.com/News/051101/TampaBay/Student_removed_from_.shtml|drawing guns on paper].

Are we there yet?

Post #179,147

10/13/04 3:13:32 PM

I agree with you, that one was ridiculous.

Drawing a picture of a weapon does not constitute a threat.

Drawing up detailed plans and trying to get help to carry out threat, does. imho

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #179,152

by jake123

10/13/04 3:17:57 PM

Nah, in my world

a thread is something that comes off the cuffs of my shirts.

g,d&rfc

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #179,160

by jb4

10/13/04 3:56:44 PM

Yah, in my world, too

Unfortunately, in my world, my fingers don't live in the same world as does my brain....

Post #179,167

by daemon

10/13/04 5:41:15 PM

guilty of conspiracy once you involve another

in both merry olde and here
regards,
daemon

Post #179,178

by bepatient

10/13/04 6:45:22 PM

Conspiricy to commit

Pretty much once you go from talk to step one in the plan...you can be busted.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #179,139

by lincoln

10/13/04 2:48:03 PM

aka "The Minority Report"

lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]

Post #179,141

10/13/04 2:50:59 PM

That film did cross my mind, yes.

Post #179,149

10/13/04 3:14:00 PM

Never saw it.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #179,151

10/13/04 3:15:47 PM

One of Cruise's better films.

The storyline is original and startling, the acting is good, and there's refreshingly little cheese.

Post #179,164

by ben_tilly

10/13/04 4:42:56 PM

Yup, the storyline is original

The ending bears no resemblance to the short story that it was purportedly based on.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #179,163

10/13/04 4:27:39 PM

Maybe not a criminal

But quite possibly heading down that road.

What I think the authorities should do, is possibly develop another level of offenders...

For example, someone writes about, tells someone about or otherwise details a plan to commit murder at their school... that person should be at the very least, made to undergo a psychiatric evaluation, and possibly a search of the home to ensure there are no weapons cached there for use in said plan.

Not arrested, at least not arrested like we know, maybe put under psychiatric watch or something of that nature. Parents are told, people are informed, child is allowed to return to school after said period of time.

Second example, someone actually does something more direct, i.e. threatens someone verbally or on paper directly, enlists others to be part of the "plan" or gathers weapons, shows them off, or makes floor plans of the school, notes on security procedure, etc, that person then should indeed be arrested, but also made to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. Then depending on how much was done in planning the crime, maybe or maybe not be put in Juvenile detention.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree that even writing about it or telling someone about it is grounds enough to examine the student intensely. Remember that Kleibold and Harris told people... multiple times. Posted it on their website, directly threatened people...

Had someone acted then, as they did now, lives would have been saved and a disaster averted.

Brenda

"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).

Post #179,170

10/13/04 5:58:58 PM

Bah.

Liberty, safety, all that.

Phooey! We should lock 'em up and dose 'em up and psych 'em up!

After all, they're not MY kids.

Teenagers say and do an awful lot of very stupid things. Why this is news to some people, I dunno.

This incident needed to be dealt with in the HOME, not the courts. Sheesh. The kid needed to be grounded, not indicted.

But you go and build your interventionist state, where if you think/write the wrong thing, you get psychiatrically assessed and your home is searched. Perhaps we could set up a hotline where people could anonymously advise The Authorities that their neighbours and their children are plotting Evil? Wouldn't that be a GRAND idea?

Ref: DDR.

Post #179,173

10/13/04 6:31:45 PM

I don't think you read my post right

Phooey! We should lock 'em up and dose 'em up and psych 'em up!

I didn't say anything about drugging all of them up or locking all of them up. I said they needed a psychiatric evaluation. Sometimes kids act out when they are depressed. They might have anger issues, or unresolved problems. This would involve working with the parents and the doctors and finding out why the child is feeling these things or wanting to hurt people.

After all, they're not MY kids.

This has nothing to do with it. I don't even have kids, so I can't even apply that. It's more like, are they dangerous to themselves or society, and gently evaluate them and find that out.

Teenagers say and do an awful lot of very stupid things. Why this is news to some people, I dunno.

This is true, however, lately such comments offhandedly have come true more often than not. It seems now to be a new big thing to plan or committ a school shooting or hurt students or teachers. So maybe it needs a new plan to address these problems.

This incident needed to be dealt with in the HOME, not the courts. Sheesh. The kid needed to be grounded, not indicted.

And I didn't say to take him to court. I said to evaluate him, and involve his parents. Only if he actually committed a crime, i.e. "hired someone", "gathered weapons", etc. would he be dealt with in the courts.

Honestly Peter, sometimes I think you only read more into what someone says and and decide you know what it means rather than really read for understanding. I did not say the things you imply I did.

Brenda

Post #179,225

10/14/04 1:56:48 AM

Oh, I read it right, all right.

You want the state to do people's parenting for them.

You want people to have psychiatric assessments and home searches (isn't there something in your Constitution about that) because they wrote or said something you don't want them to write or say. And what are you going to do with that assessment, anyway? I'll tell you what'll happen with it. Prozac and friends, that's what.

And yes, you did imply that it would end up in court, because I know that the first thing I'd do if the gubmint tried to "assess" my son and search his belongings is I'd have the gubmint in court - which would probably have to happen before they crossed the threshold to perform a search ANYWAY. (Actually, that'd be the second thing I'd do. The first thing I'd do would be to have the "what the hell are you playing at?" conversation with him)

And this line:

"This is true, however, lately such comments offhandedly have come true more often than not. "

...is utter bollocks. "Come true more often than not"? Don't be ridiculous. Every other angsty teenage boy out there is plotting the demise of his parents, his teachers and the football team. This poor sod just couldn't keep his trap shut.

Post #179,267

10/14/04 12:12:33 PM

You think what you like, that's not what I said.

Ever since Columbine, I've taken a lot of time studying school shootings. Nine out of every ten, the kid(s) told someone first and then carried it out.

It's kind of like a suicide note. Some kids write them to write them. Other kids write them and mean it and carry it out.

The only way to know the difference is to investigate the kids that write and determine if they are the kids that will do.

Children are committing crimes at earlier and earlier ages, times have seriously changed, and criminals are being made younger and younger. If we intervene now, if we talk to the kids, evaluate them, (and no, I didn't say put them all on drugs), I mean really sit down and talk to them, and give them an outlet to express their anger, maybe we can prevent today's children from becoming tomorrow's criminals.

Nightowl >8#

Post #179,268

by ben_tilly

10/14/04 12:18:37 PM

And in 10 out of every 10, the kids breathed air

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #179,269

by inthane-chan

10/14/04 12:22:27 PM

Kids committed crimes at early ages a long time ago too.

What has changed is not the capacity to commit crimes, but the access to more dangerous tools to commit violoence with. The only difference between kids today and kids 20 years ago is that they use guns instead of baseball bats.

I know.

All I want for my birthday is a new President!

Post #179,270

10/14/04 12:24:22 PM

They use both

A child beat his dad to death yesterday in St. Louis with a baseball bat.

But yes, I agree, there is more ready access to more and more dangerous weapons.

Nightowl >8#

Post #179,272

by imric

10/14/04 12:40:18 PM

10/14/04 12:46:27 PM

Bull. Access? No difference.

Well, one difference. There was MORE access back then.

EVERY kid I knew 20-30 years ago had a gun.

Far fewer have them today.

Sorry - it's not access to weapons that do this - it's that kids are taught, from an early age, that they are not responsible for anything. It's ALWAYS someone or someTHING else's fault. Slip on a sidewalk? Sue the person who's house sits behind it.

Burn your tongue on hot coffee? Sue the person that made it.

Murder someone? It's access to guns. Or society. Or something.

Bah.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric Oct. 14, 2004, 12:46:27 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #179,274

10/14/04 12:48:56 PM

Sounds like you need a psychiatric evaluation!

Post #179,275

by imric

10/14/04 12:51:41 PM

That's not MY fault.

Current societal values drove me to this point.

There... Am I back in line with normal society now?

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #179,277

10/14/04 12:52:43 PM

Let's search your property and find out!

After all, it's for the CHEELDRUN.

Post #179,281

by imric

10/14/04 1:24:19 PM

ROFLMAO!

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #179,283

by bepatient

10/14/04 1:30:14 PM

*sputter* coffee through nose

Now >that< was funny.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #179,276

10/14/04 12:52:37 PM

10/14/04 1:04:37 PM

I didn't say it was access

I did agree that access to more dangerous weapons was available, but I didn't make that the reason for the problem.

Of course the problem is how the kids are raised, that's why I suggested having the evaluation and including the parents and getting them involved with their child and the process so that they can become his/her outlet to verbally vent his/her frustration and talk about all these things, rather than acting them out by causing physical harm to himself/herself or others.

Nightowl >8#

Edit: changed his to his/her and himself to himself/herself

Edited by Nightowl Oct. 14, 2004, 01:04:37 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #179,279

10/14/04 1:00:18 PM

It probably had to do with location

Where you lived 20-30 years ago, etc. None of the kids I knew and played with as a child had a gun. I didn't have a gun, nor would I. Only one high-schooler that I attended school with ever showed me a gun, and it was a black-powder rifle that he put together from a kit, a replica from the Civil War. I even went to the range with him and shot that one.

My ex-fiance had a gun because he was trying to become a police officer. He went to training but was unable to ever get the hang of shooting. I was there with him, and they asked me to try for fun, and I actually shot his own gun with better precision than he did. But I never owned one.

I think it depended on where you lived. For example people in the country might be more likely to have guns. People in the heart of dangerous areas of the city might be more likely to have guns.

Owning a gun or having a gun tends to be bred out of the fear of one's surroundings, or the desire to engage in hunting or something similar. Fearful surroundings cause people to want to have means to protect themselves, hence more gun owners.

But it still isn't the reason for the problem. Granted, parents don't always lock their guns up properly, (my Ex-fiance had a gun box, with a lock plus a trigger lock on his gun), but that doesn't stop a determined kid from finding a weapon. The problem starts at home, when kids feel they have no one to talk to or no one to express their issues to. Sometimes the writing of the plans or the telling of the plans is as similar a cry for help as the suicide note.

We need to listen to those cries for help, because they can avert much larger disasters.

Brenda

Post #179,293

by deSitter

10/14/04 2:01:38 PM

Re: Bull. Access? No difference.

A friend used to go down to the dump to "plonk rats" with .22 rifles and handguns. He and his teenage buddies would stop in the local store to buy beer, armed to the teeth - pull out their handguns and slap'em down on the counter, fumbling for pocket change. No problem, man.

-drl

Post #179,337

by mmoffitt

10/14/04 5:22:26 PM

Hmmm. Sounds like we need more of these.

bcnu,
Mikem

Will the last one to leave, please turn out the lights?

Post #179,280

10/14/04 1:08:35 PM

You're right also

Kids always committed crimes at early ages to some degree.

I think the biggest difference is now those crimes get much more coverage and more media attention and that helps to entice copy cat crimes by other kids. Some kids involved in school shootings even stated they just wanted to get their name in the paper.

Cries for attention, at their utmost.

Nightowl >8#

Post #179,273

10/14/04 12:44:00 PM

Read Oliver Twist...

...if you think that criminals are younger "these days".

Post #179,284

by jb4

10/14/04 1:44:31 PM

Lies, Damn Lies, and...

OK, so for every school shootemup, 90% of the time the shooter(s) tipped their hand to a friend or confidant.

Impressive.

Now, for every time somebody "confesses" to a friend or confidant that they want to go Columbine, what is the percentage that they actually do it?

That's the number that is germane here...

Post #179,286

10/14/04 1:52:31 PM

Then whats a lie about what I said?

I got my data from facts. I've read everything I can about Columbine, I've cut out and read and kept every school shooting since then.

I don't know the answer to the question you posed, because so far I haven't come across any data about it.

So tell me what I said in that post that is a lie?

Brenda

Post #179,289

by drewk

10/14/04 1:56:29 PM

Why?

I've read everything I can about Columbine, I've cut out and read and kept every school shooting since then.

What's your morbid fascination with death?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #179,296

10/14/04 2:23:56 PM

Are you sure you want to know?

You might be surprised by the answer.

Nightowl >8#

Post #179,301

10/14/04 2:42:46 PM

Yes.

Post #179,304

10/14/04 2:54:47 PM

Okay here goes.

First, I've always been fascinated by man's inhumanity to man. It's something I've studied over the years starting with Hitler's Germany, actually, when in High School, I first discovered how inhumane one human being could actually be to another. So I basically delved into it, trying to understand it, although I don't think that's possible. You get some understandings of what drives this person or that person to behave in such an inhumane manner, but not any complete understanding because it simply doesn't exist.

I even wrote a novel exploring this concept, but I never published it. I was given honorable mention by Dell, but never pushed it farther.

Then, when Columbine happened, I read things as usual, trying to "understand" it. And what I discovered scared and shocked me. I discovered that the reasons Kliebold and Harris gave for their actions echoed my very exact thoughts in high school. I found I actually related to them in regarding this. This made me start thinking. I was also bullied, treated bad in school, I was stuffed into trash cans, locked into lockers, beaten up, etc. etc. I didn't fight back. But it got me to wondering... what if I had? If I had been born into a different type of family, one that advocated violence as a response, one that possessed weapons, or encouraged fighting... would I have turned out the same way?

It really gave me something to think about. So now when I read the school shootings, I read deeper, I find out what the kid was thinking, and I feel sorry for the child that he/she was unable to find another way to "fight back".

I consider bullying in school to be one of the worst things a child must endure, it causes depression, it causes anger to fester inside, and often even causes them to committ suicide. So I guess in a way, I keep reading these cases, hoping to find a better understanding, and hoping maybe someday children will find another way to cope with bullying, other than my way, (taking it) and Columbine's shooters' way, (killing them).

Brenda

Post #179,307

10/14/04 3:15:56 PM

Oh, THAT.

You should get together with Jon Katz sometime.

Post #179,320

10/14/04 3:59:53 PM

10/14/04 4:00:54 PM

He sounds fascinating

Excerpt from an article:
"The truth is," Katz wrote, "many more kids kill themselves then [sic] others, often because of bullying, a subject about which Ashcroft had nothing to say. The question really is whether vicious kids and hostile school environments are turning kids into killers."

He's right. I tried suicide over and over in high school. I stood on top of a building that I'd climbed up to the highest ledge of, and watched the majority of the students below who saw me there, yell "jump jump" A friend who had followed me up there grabbed me before I could.

Bullying is a big deal. It isn't just kids being kids, not when it goes to extremes well beyond the safety zones.

Nightowl >8#

Edit: fixed punctuation

Edited by Nightowl Oct. 14, 2004, 04:00:54 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #179,322

10/14/04 4:07:56 PM

Told ya so.

Post #179,361

by Ashton

10/14/04 7:35:52 PM

Fair enough.

Well, Brenda - you have the direct experience and you tried to do some homework; that's the kernel of actual 'science' - though we see that the soft ones like psych and socio - are proof that logic just isn't enough, when dealing with homo saps.

You're as entitled to an opinion towards "some plan" as anyone else here. As suggested though.. you may share with millions of 'innumerate' Muricans - a rather shaky knowledge of how we lie (even to selves) via statistics. Good recent example is given in this thread.

Dunno if there's much hope of the species ever evading its reptile brain base - after all, look at the mission of the PNAC (a New Murican Empire\ufffd) ie all the President's Men. We see that the reptile-base cannot be reliably out'grown'- note how few actual 'adults' one encounters/year. Even at the Top.

The kids are just closer to that primal influence. Then too, today they are exposed to more noise/day than could be imagined - a mere 20 years ago; distracted by infinite toys (and the Need to get More of these), baggy-pantsed in perfect conformity aka 'rebellion'; often drugged for brand new Pharmchem-defined dis-eases, ie - WTF did we expect! when we "allowed it to become?" necessary for *Both parents to work, now more often in multiple jobs -- in lieu of parental oversight and actual teaching-by-example, "nurturing of the young"?

* Both: that is, occasionally today. Compound the above difficulties for the growing ranks of One.

Trying for creation of any more official Authorities - would just play into the Ashcroftizing of further Constitutional rights and principles; another pattern we can see, looking backwards.

Face it, then: we [the species] just aren't Smart enough, or dedicated enough.. especially as our attention spans weaken from the constant cacophony of ads, noise, bizness-lies and the other intentional Lying in a day. Be grateful that only a few carry out their fantasies!

(After all, a decent respect for Gaia, for the survival of the Earth as a viable place: would hasten the departure! of *this* over-populating, massively polluting, now-more-suicidal species.. as rarely produces an authentic Adult, just mainly - perpetual teens..)

Looking on the Bwight Side,

Ashton

Post #179,399

10/15/04 12:46:36 AM

Re: Fair enough.

Well, Brenda - you have the direct experience and you tried to do some homework; that's the kernel of actual 'science' - though we see that the soft ones like psych and socio - are proof that logic just isn't enough, when dealing with homo saps.

Thanks Ashton. This is a topic that I do my best to be informed about, mainly because I am indeed interested in gaining more understanding about it.

You're as entitled to an opinion towards "some plan" as anyone else here. As suggested though.. you may share with millions of 'innumerate' Muricans - a rather shaky knowledge of how we lie (even to selves) via statistics. Good recent example is given in this thread.

Well, I still don't see that my data was all that flawed, because it was factual, it just only covered one aspect of the issue. But that was the only aspect I was trying to cover. That particular data was collected in a study of all the school shootings across the country over a period of time from Columbine until last year. I don't remember all the info from it, but I remember that particular statistic. I probably have the article somewhere, buried in one of my school shooting files. But the bottom line is I was only stating one statistic, not covering all.

I would be very interested though, in finding a study of the kids that said it and didn't do it, but of course that would be hard, because you would have to exclude all the ones that said it and were caught and or stopped. How would one know whether said child would have carried it out in actuality or not? Someone tried once if I recall correctly, in the 80's, to do a study on children/teens who threatened suicide, vs children/teens who did it, but they ran into the same problem. How to include in the statistics the ones who said it and were stopped. Once again, there was no way to know if they would have carried it through. Even when the kids/teens were asked, they weren't sure themselves.

The kids are just closer to that primal influence. Then too, today they are exposed to more noise/day than could be imagined - a mere 20 years ago; distracted by infinite toys (and the Need to get More of these), baggy-pantsed in perfect conformity aka 'rebellion'; often drugged for brand new Pharmchem-defined dis-eases, ie - WTF did we expect! when we "allowed it to become?" necessary for *Both parents to work, now more often in multiple jobs -- in lieu of parental oversight and actual teaching-by-example, "nurturing of the young"?

I agree here, that dual working parents did indeed provide less parental supervision and more freedom for the children/teens to traverse down the more dangerous paths. Unfortunately, in today's economy, it's become necessary if not required, for both parents to work in order to provide adequately for their families. And many parents are single-parents, also struggling to make ends meet, and with little time to spend chaperoning or supervising their children.

Trying for creation of any more official Authorities - would just play into the Ashcroftizing of further Constitutional rights and principles; another pattern we can see, looking backwards.

Well, something I didn't make clear was it didn't necessarily have to be a law enforcement program. It could be something run by each school district, or even by the state in conjunction with the school district. Maybe the schools could set up programs to help these troubled kids/teens when they are spotted or found out. Maybe they could provide counselors, (not pumped up with drugs, just given someone to talk to), and some support systems to enable the child to feel less helpless in the face of the bullying and other treatment.

Maybe they would even be able to initiate a bully awareness program, something to enlighten the students about how bullying makes people feel and how badly the victims take it at times, and how to spot someone who's feeling bullied or mistreated. Basically, start at the school level where the parents aren't available to watch over the kids, and involve the parents where they are able to be involved, such as parent-child counseling, or awareness programs for the parents as well as the children.

I'm not really just saying another form of lockup would work. Maybe it would, maybe not, but the main thing is to find a system that identifies these "cries for help" from these troubled children and to provide that help which they cry for.

I've seen such school-run systems actually work and make a difference in some schools that elected to take a role in lessening bullying and offering support. It would just be a matter of finding a plan that would work for either all the schools or maybe tailor making plans for each one.

I just don't see what expelling the children and or arresting them does, they will wind up back out on the street with even less parental/teacher supervision, and or out on parole or Juvenile hall with nothing learned.

Maybe I am dreaming, but at least it's a positive sort of dream, rather than to lock these kids and their lives away and throw out the key.

Nightowl >8#

Post #179,290

by hnick

10/14/04 1:57:54 PM

Umm..

You were supposed to infer "Statistics" from the elipsis. It is a very standard saying.
The suggestion was that you were drawing the incorrect conclusion by incorrectly using the data.
You were not being accused of being a liar. At least I don't think so.
Feel free to carry on about the proper use of the data. I don't think that it will break down to a black and white solution, so there will probably be no consensus at the end. But if you enjoy that sort of thing...

Post #179,297

10/14/04 2:25:28 PM

I was just questioning

jb4's subject line, he called it Lies, Damn lies and..

And I just wanted to know why.

Brenda

Post #179,299

10/14/04 2:40:18 PM

Just guessing

But figures can be made to show anything positive or negative. Figures don't lie, but their presentation without the supporting documentation can mislead...

Kerry: We've lost 1.6 million jobs (doesn't count jobs created)
Bush: We've created 1.3 million jobs (doesn't address fact that most are lower paying jobs.

Both figures are "correct" and both figures "lie".

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #179,300