Post #178,636
10/9/04 5:04:03 PM
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This plan.
Your original implication was that "this plan" did not exist before 9/11. Your new implication is that it is a mere modification of a plan that existed during Clinton's term (link please, and I object to the modification inference). The conclusion of these is that this plan, the PNAC plan, was not a policy of Bush before 9/11. Thus the congratulations.
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It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #178,639
10/9/04 6:37:16 PM
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Go back to the bong hits.
Here my implication is that your meds are wearing off..as opposed to your implication that I implied that our governments implied policy was not regime change at some point, even though I stated it directly, as opposed to your implication of my implication that I did not directly say it.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #178,641
10/9/04 7:53:13 PM
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It appears you are in need of them more than I.
You still haven't clarified the "this plan" portion of your spin. You know, the one where we bomb the fuck out of them. The implication that the plan to invade Iraq was a mere modification of a Clinton plan is right there in your post. Maybe it's just your subconscious working though and it wasn't intentional.
Naah.
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It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #178,643
10/9/04 7:59:38 PM
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You doubt that?
You think we establish a position of regime change and >don't< have a military plan to remove him?
You >are< on drugs, aren't you?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #178,645
10/9/04 8:30:04 PM
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Sorry.
"Regime Change" != "Invasion & occupation"
It was called "regime change" when this policy wasn't for mass consumption, too - that means that it isn't NECESSARILY a phrase meant to whitewash, to decieve.
I can well believe that we would have supported rebels within Iraq. I can believe that would have looked the other way if another 'acceptable' country had invaded as 'liberators'.
Invasion and occupation of a Middle Eastern country was (from an oilman's/'energy policy' perspective) THIS administration's dream.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #178,647
10/9/04 8:37:29 PM
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Not you too?
Hell we wargamed Canada once, ferchrissakes.
We had just invaded and liberated Kuwait 10 years prior.
You mean to tell me that you don't think the Pentagon had an invasion scenario in hand prior to Bush Jr taking office?
I did not say that the pre and post 9/11 plans were identical. I did say that the post 9/11 plans of this administration were modified versions of plans already in existance.
I also said that there was no support at implementing anything of the sort until after 9/11.
But if you are telling me we hadn't wargamed Iraq prior to Bush Jr, y'all are nuts.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #178,657
10/9/04 9:56:17 PM
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*sigh*
Wargamed THIS scenario?
No. I doubt it. It might have been better planned, then.
But if you think this is largely a plan dreamed up in some other administration, OK.
I don't buy it.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #178,668
10/10/04 1:19:33 AM
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Not the point
I'm not blaming this on Clinton, if thats what your getting at.
This administration definitely had eyes on Iraq unlike previous administrations...my point is that it wasn't as drastic a shift as many here seem to think it was in our policy...and that 9/11 gave it life that it could never have had otherwise.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #178,684
10/10/04 4:06:34 AM
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'Life' as in... Frankenstein, perhaps - Mr. Apologist
An artificially-urgent rush via hyped minimal-intel.. not to judgment - but to an agenda; via the pointed ignoring of all surrounding competent sources of 'judgment' re military necessities and all which could be anticipated to follow even a successful penetration.
(We did get average Murican level of knowledge of the ME though: could any group intent upon such a fantasy - have been more ignorant of the warring clans and their history, such as to imagine the Welcoming of an Occupation Army? .. for more than about 3 days?)
Anyone who imagines the events since 3/03; the rampant looting, the firing of the only available force to maintain order (Iraqi Army) etc. etc. -- to have been just "a pattern of normal errors by able people" - surely has a naively channeled imagination.
I know. I Know.
WDYHNSM
Why Do You Hate Neoconmen So Much?
First - they confuse fantasy with human probabilities. It's their Nature.
Second - they lie, unabashedly because They Know Our Destiny\ufffd -->
Third - like all zealots, they lack (that.. often-salvaging) sense of humor.
Fatal, that last. Look at them speak, up-close: Rove, Wolfie, Rice-y, Perle, Cheney! Ashcroft!!
cha cha cha
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Post #178,688
10/10/04 7:09:42 AM
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No, Bill.
I find 'regime change' to 'invade and occupy' to be a drastic shift.
Moving from the support of removal of Saddam from office to taking Iraq by force - bearing the overwhelming cost in lives and dollars ourselves - IS drastic. It is not merely a continuation of policy, as the republicans have billed it.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #178,689
10/10/04 8:53:48 AM
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Maybe so.
Drastic or not. I don't think the merry men in the Pentagon had to dig too deep in the files to unearth this "drastic new neocon plan" (if that choice of wording suits you better).
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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