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New Which type of karma?
There is something like karma that I can accept. Then there is the popular version. The two are diametrically opposed.

The popular version of karma is that we are rewarded or punished in this life for the sins and good deeds of lives past. The world is fundamentally fair, we just don't see in this life the full causes.

This is a theory that is very comforting for the powers that be, and is good for soothing the downtrodden masses. Who after all must deserve a little downtrodding, else they would not be in the downtrodden masses! But I can't buy it.

Then there is another version of karma. It is the idea that your actions establish patterns that the world reacts to. Your actions create ongoing patterns with their own consequences. This isn't a theory that says that what happens is based on any cosmic fairness. Just patterns. The world is how it is because that is a stable pattern, and not out of any cosmic fairness.

This is a theory which the rulers don't like so much. It says that they rule because someone somewhere decided to enforce power and managed to succeed and hold it. Armed with a theory like this, the downtrodden masses are liable to think, "Hey, we are downtrodden because we accept downtrodding. Doing something about it may be dangerous, etc. But it is up to us to do something about it if we want to avoid remaining downtrodden!"

But from my (admittedly limited) reading of Eastern religions, this interpretation of karma is in perfect accord with what they say. (But note that the explicit goal of Buddhism is to try to break all of the patterns you are involve with. I do not think this possible, nor do I think that attempting it is good. But then again I am not a Buddhist.)

BTW karma is not just an Eastern concept. While Western religions may not believe in life after life with karma ongoing, karma is the concept encapsulated in popular sayings like, "You reap what you sow", "What goes around, comes around", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and so on.

Cheers,
Ben
New Between the two, the latter.
The first idea - reincarnation (with 'forgetfulness' of some prearrangements made, pre-birth: of what is to be 'worked out on the Wheel? this time around') - does, as you suggest, mollify the Untouchables [cosmic plan and all] and facilitate the maintenance of privilege for the few. There are many reasons why I also find that model mechanistic and unconvincing.

The second view is ~ close enough to work with as a replacement for Luck, IMhO. Undeniably (per historic records) certain individual persons have profoundly altered civilization's next course. Their behavior, discoveries - sometimes their general wisdom and.. altogether - what else but charisma? might be the common denominator.

Thus "a One" Can affect all others, near-term and/or indefinitely. Agreed - any 'cosmic definition of fairness' is likely a Red Herring. While this branch of 'Karma' suffices as replacement for Luck IMO: it certainly doesn't settle metaphysical questions, reveal Truth - or any of those other wishful-things we imagine can be achieved with enough words (or a few Good Ones, even). That's the best we can do though - given common referents for words.

So I'd leave it there re Karma/Luck. If 'the world' is indeed maya/illusion: most things we'd say about 'it' would be circular anyway. Odd consequence though: all the 'physical, measurable' becomes evanescent and without any permanence; the impalpable er ineffable, becomes: that literally timeless [Reality] whose attributes we can't fathom, decribe! yet (some say) ... might be 'reachable', from life (never mind the 'death' bugaboo -- that might not be Real either). :-\ufffd

And people imagine Chess to be a challenging game (!) Now were there any sense of the rules for a Master Game - hmmm maybe there are.



Namaste Y'all

Ashton
     Thoughts on forgiveness? - (Another Scott) - (45)
         Forgiveness vs restitution - (Brandioch)
         Forgiveness is wonderful; just get even first :) -NT - (hnick)
         Not a false distinction, but is it a worthwhile one? ;) - (tseliot) - (10)
             Yes, I wasn't thinking of legal issues. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                 Not a question of punishment, but of power imbalance - (tseliot) - (8)
                     Interesting historical context. Thanks. - (Another Scott)
                     Heh.. agonistic as in - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Honor - (tseliot) - (1)
                             Ah.. said well enough that - (Ashton)
                     Re: Sincerity & Forgiveness - (brettj) - (3)
                         Value to me? or to our imaginary 1st-century folk? - (tseliot) - (2)
                             Fascinating - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 Great! I don't mind disagreement... - (tseliot)
         Forgiveness is divine. - (brettj)
         A possible distinction. - (Ashton) - (1)
             reminds me an irish elephant - (boxley)
         The best example of how I think about forgiveness - (boxley) - (1)
             Thanks. - (Another Scott)
         I don't hold with forgiveness - (ben_tilly) - (20)
             Clartification... - (ChrisR) - (14)
                 All of the above - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                     Cheese! whats yer thoughts on TP up or down? :) -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                         You really want to know? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                             Well small chirrun have the same effect - (boxley)
                     Not assigning fault and the relation to forgiveness. - (brettj) - (9)
                         I think you missed my point - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                             Re: I think you missed my point - (brettj) - (7)
                                 Um, not quite - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     Life is sorta like an onion - (brettj) - (5)
                                         I am mixed on the Asimov quote - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                             Karma? - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 Which type of karma? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                     Between the two, the latter. - (Ashton)
                                             Just being aware of the question is worthwhile. - (brettj)
             Thanks. And a little story. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                 To a woman yes - (boxley)
                 Put it this way... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                     Thanks. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                     Thanks for some lucid prose. - (Ashton)
         Compassionate feelings that support a willingness to forgive - (brettj) - (4)
             Another incentive for developing that - (Ashton)
             Yes, that occurred to me, too. - (static) - (2)
                 Maybe that's the real question? Who needs forgiveness more? - (brettj) - (1)
                     I think that is situational. - (static)
         My thoughts - (orion)

Cool. What am I breaking?
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