IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New Well, the US could leave tomorrow
and it would still be a quagmire, just that they wouldn't be stuck in it anymore.

Of course, you're absolutely right about the number of troops. And you're probably going to need them too.

In an ideal world, Bush would have left Iraq alone and concentrated on rebuilding Afghanistan. If a tenth of the kinds of resources that are going into Iraq were devoted to doing things like building highways in Afghanistan, the world would have a very different view of GWB and the US today. Instead, Afghanistan is still very unstable, and furthermore has a growing narcodollar influence as the opium trade is back in full swing.

Not only that, but if he'd waited a year or two and really did a Marshall plan job on Afghanistan, if he then wanted to talk to other countries in the ME about some things, he'd be doing it from a position of having proved his legitimacy.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Agree re: Afghan.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New There's a very good article in the October Atlantic
which talks about the very serious and damaging mis-steps that the current administration has taken, with a fairly in-depth look at 2002.

On the quagmire question, there are two answers, and really neither one is entirely based on the time frame of US involvement. It's really based on the kinds of conditions that are found there before and after. If Iraq descends into warlordism and criminal capitalism (ie- organised crime runs the economy) then the US will have been responsible for creating a quagmire for the Iraqi people, regardless if the US spends one month or ten years there themselves. The jury's still out on that. In the meantime, the current situation looks like a quagmire in the immediate sense: low intensity conflict, local insurgency, slow but steady casualty rate (and the advances in med tech over the last fifteen years wrt trauma have kept the death rate a lot lower than it would have been in conflicts past), nearly no reliable way to tell the insurgent from the non-combatants (outside gender and age) and certainly no easy way, and being stuck between a rock and a hard place both politically and legally.

Under international law, the US is an occupying power and has certain legal obligations to the people of Iraq. Furthermore, if they cut and run and Iraq descends into chaos, nobody's going to believe anything they say for a generation. Legally, the US can't leave, and the political price for the US makes it very undesirable. OTOH, you're stuck in a conflict that certainly has all the pieces in place to be a quagmire. How to fix it?

There is a very real possibility that it can't be fixed. According to the article I read in the Atlantic, some career military types think Iraq would require two million soldiers there to be able to reliably secure and pacify the place, clean out both the fundie and criminal violent elements, and provide the kind of environment that could actually lead to decent elections and a real democratic government with no question as to its legitimacy.

This is the real shame of the missed opportunities in Afghanistan. The real truth is that the kind of project that the admin claims they're engaged in Iraq would have been a lot cheaper in both blood and treasure in Afghanistan, and would furthermore have made the current attempt in Iraq cheaper as well as the US would have been seen to be doing it for no reason other than security in Afghanistan. Simply put, Afghanistan is as poor as dirt, has no real wealth, and if the US had done the job right it would have been seen as being both self-interested and altruistic: self interested because of cleaning up the elements that attacked it, and altruistic because there would be no sense of collective punishment and because the motivation couldn't possibly have been driven by access to resources.

The whole thing is a huge mess. I think you're right when you say Kerry can't wave a magic wand to make it go away. However, I don't think you realise how much more intransigent the Rest of the West is going to become with the US if GWB wins again. Outside the US, he's viewed as a dangerous dishonest sociopathic clown. This in turn can create more problems as that animosity will make it harder for the US to get even a neutral result out of the current mess, let alone a good one.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New If that's your paraphrase of the article
- kudos.

As to warlordism (aka ~ clear Corporate control of the people's putative representatives) and the influence of Fundies - these are apparently 12-14% of US population, yet currently are setting US policies:

We can't/won't correct these anti-democratic abuses of power in the US; WTF should anyone in the world imagine - we might to enforce such ideas We Cannot.. amongst 4 or 5 sects (about whom our ignorance is nearly complete) - as have been feuding for centuries ?!


It is a Silly Time to be alive.
New Not entirely
There's one paragraph in there that really talks about the article. For the most part, the rest is what I think about it.

... and all that still leaves the question of "what to do now?" open and nearly unanswerable.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
     He must be lying - (bepatient) - (53)
         No, not necessarily. - (jake123) - (40)
             Do we want to compare.. - (bepatient) - (39)
                 That comparison means nothing to the issue - (jake123) - (6)
                     And if we are in and out - (bepatient) - (5)
                         Well, the US could leave tomorrow - (jake123) - (4)
                             Agree re: Afghan. -NT - (bepatient) - (3)
                                 There's a very good article in the October Atlantic - (jake123) - (2)
                                     If that's your paraphrase of the article - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         Not entirely - (jake123)
                 Wow. - (mmoffitt) - (31)
                     Are we? - (bepatient) - (30)
                         What crap. -NT - (Silverlock) - (27)
                             Really? - (bepatient) - (25)
                                 !!SHUN!! - (jb4) - (12)
                                     Look at the progression. - (bepatient) - (11)
                                         Devil's advocate can sometimes work. But when this - (Ashton) - (10)
                                             Since when.. - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                 How lofty.. to find the Beginnings now 'Irrelevant' - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                     Has it or has it not already occurred? - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                         Since you seem to have stepped out of the debbil's advocate - (Ashton)
                                                         "Ridiculous"? Really... - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                             Right. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                 Yep. We'll prolly still be there in 2009. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                     Well prep for the question then. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                         Dream --> on. -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                             Aerosmith ROX dude -NT - (bepatient)
                                 The crap is your "heartfelt" concern. - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                     I'm not drinking the kool-aid dude. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                         There's the Pollyanna I know. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                 o0o0 what wonderful proof... - (Simon_Jester) - (8)
                                     Can find some wonderful things.. - (bepatient) - (7)
                                         Yep...that's why no many are ticked at Dan Rather - (Simon_Jester) - (6)
                                             Well...I kind of expect them to do it too, nowadays. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                 That, my friend, is owed exclusively to a Republican. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                     Ross, is that you? - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                         Besides, we shouldn't blindly trust those that govern us. - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                             Well that's mighty cynical - (deSitter)
                                                     I was talking about the press, goof. -NT - (bepatient)
                             oops - (bepatient)
                         I seem to recall an issue with the mass graves in Iraq.... - (Simon_Jester)
                         Hey, if you're Sunni... - (jb4)
         I hope he is successful... - (ChrisR) - (7)
             We're blind men describing an elephant. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                 Russia exists for thousand yrs - Iraq not a country at all -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                     Not exactly. - (Another Scott)
                     Russia as we know it is a colonial empire - (Arkadiy)
             Scary and racist thought. - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                 Absoultely - (deSitter)
                 Excellent summation! Kudos. -NT - (Ashton)
         No, the IRAQ elections will be held on time... - (Simon_Jester)
         We'll see if he lives that long - (tuberculosis)
         Some elections will be held - (JayMehaffey)
         This will be just as meaningful as the "handover" -NT - (Silverlock)

I like when things catch fire and explode, which means I do not have your best interests in mind.
69 ms