Look at the progression.

Post #176,020 by bepatient 9/23/04 7:27:00 PM Reply	Look at the progression. Then come back with that. Simple count will do. If (big goddamned if I know) the PM is actually successful and elections are held and we get out of country in 5 years (3 to go in that...and remember there'll always be a presence...hell we're in Germany now for 60 years.. we never really leave)...are the deaths of our servicemen in vain as many here are trying to suggest. I say no. Period. Regardless of the reason, we likely saved more than we would have sacrificed by doing nothing. Understand now? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #176,081 by Ashton 9/24/04 2:37:30 AM Reply	Devil's advocate can sometimes work. But when this transparent, it's really hard to tell whether you're putting us on badly - or yourself. As-if... the 'plight of some folks under some awful Bad regime' .. were of the slightest note or consequence to the Peepul, let alone imagining: to Rove et al! (Next you might be arguing that Dr. Kissinger is really a humanitarian who's just been greatly misunderstood over decades. Tell that one to Chile et al.) Which of the 34.5 randomly shuffled Reasons for Immediate Solo Invasion are you meaning to defend here? moi
Post #176,099 by bepatient 9/24/04 6:42:50 AM Reply	Since when.. ...has justification of war ever sounded good to the dead? Since when has the historical perspective of that death being for the greater good ever been a comfort to the dead or their families? And everyone seems to have fallen prey to the IMMEDIATE. If we can't fix it NOW, leave it alone, throw it away, get out, its not our problem...etc. 18 months. Babies are still talked about in months at this stage. This >peepul< is guaging things in terms outside of country. Think Spock. Good of the many..cha cha cha. ;-) Who cares what the politicians think? Who started it is irrelevent (save for Nov when you touch the screen ;-). Its happened and how it is viewed in the few-cha is what the million dollar question is. Continue the hysterics... If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #176,372 by Ashton 9/25/04 1:00:08 AM 9/25/04 1:09:47 AM Reply	How lofty.. to find the Beginnings now 'Irrelevant' when the seeds of folly were expressed so urgently and by so many (in US and marching abroad, in Unprecedented numbers) so early-on: and were pointedly ignored, ridiculed, called odious names. It's going to be hard to make a case for Staying --> The Course, blindly, unthinkingly, stubbornly (and perhaps, stupidly?) with troop and civilian losses following a Vietnam-era ramp-up. With the seeds od dead Iraqis' families and clans logarithmically multiplying the trouble-makers we see now to be cooperating, coordinating better each day. Sorry but.. "just be patient" seems a pretty inappropriate denouement, whether calmly or Hysterically! phrased. (umm Shouldn't that last word be 'Gonadically'? I mean, one cannot blame ALL the Hysteria at the Top on poor insouciant, disinterested-in-meetings Condoleeza, now can we?) Maybe under more nearly-normal pre-War Gonadics.. ones where war was seemingly Forced On Us and not an Invasion Planned, this might be a noble sentiment about 'scale and relativity' in all things. IMO, the Over-ness of this mess has begun, but the Facing is still nascent. Like Vietnam, still mouldering in Denial.. after all these years. Everybody will lose, as - It Was a Stupid Plan-less Plan! by irresponsible Ideologues.* [I simply cannot Believe that you buy the rhetoric of this impoverished Admin, actually..] * [link\|http://www.easthamptonstar.com/20040909/col5.htm\|http://www.easthampt...20040909/col5.htm] Edit -typee Edited by Ashton Sept. 25, 2004, 01:09:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #176,391 by bepatient 9/25/04 6:40:23 AM Reply	Has it or has it not already occurred? "stay the course" or not. The act cannot now be undone. Justified or not... A large gamble was taken. The results are not yet in. Quite frankly I don't care who finishes it... If we were to take the recommendations of the "side of reason", then we sell short our chances and by doing so the lives of our soldiers. (how this point continually is getting missed by you folks is beyond me) Comparisons to Vietnam at this point are ridiculous. And believing, wholesale, all the negative press and denouncing any challenge to that immediately as lies is equally as foolish as believing this admin's rhetoric. (which I don't) But there is still a chance that this stupid act can be successful. (even the blind squirrel..cha cha cha). The simple numbers game of justification is still on our side. (though those included in the number will still feel no comfort in this..lest I be forced to repeat myself again) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #176,449 by Ashton 9/26/04 2:08:35 AM Reply	Since you seem to have stepped out of the debbil's advocate auto-position, I'll try to put aside also, that normal homo-sap reaction to gehabt, Kindern. You're pretty much outnumbered here but you're valuable in that regard, since you're only dense on purpose. ;-) [be nice to Dubya mode {ugh} on] Obv nobody here has an inkling of a 'solution', even (also) stepping aside from recriminations and outrage felt. Several have parsed the next options. And whatever you, I or anyone personally feels re the bizarre details of How we got to today - I can only conclude with the others, equally bereft of any (even not-so-nice) 'solution': There just may not be one. Just forks promising different forms, classes of pain. We have barely begun reading the tea leaves re what the religio-mix in Iraq - should they become unmoored, unfettered, free to choose sides and tangle: might do to each other, let alone their 'consensus' re the US. Sunnis, Shias, Wahabs.. Kurds - all with ancient agenda, all held on a tight leash via the dictatorship. 'Til lately. All the political maneuvering, lies (real or just imputed), disaffections of a large slice of the populations worldwide - never mind for this moment, blame-fixing: these are essential ingredients in forming some next idea of How!? TF to proceed. And every aspect is, will remain debatable and politicized and intricate. (Our culture doesn't debate well or often) I cannot imagine how Shrub/Rove could possibly galvanize that much sought other-nations' support; it's barely imaginable even with new blood as POTUS ... which then only just- might- barely assuage the now parboiling cauldron [??] Every day: New dead Iraqis from the insurgents, clearly organizing better and better (who are: some Iraqi / some imports. Borders wide open in places). Cities/enclaves that are now extraterrritorial to either US or our surrogate Iraqi forces. "Stay the Course" is -most unfortunately- a typical Bushspeak platitude, which ruins its perspicacity. At some point, any sane inheritor of this cauldron Has to consider leaving. Period. And yes everyone realizes that if that is precipitate: even worse for our already irreparable reputation; the only question is.. can we repair it in a few years? (If we leave stupidly - make that a generation, at least.) We've been snookered. Way I see it is - every person in "public life" is already in CYA mode; this egotism shall complicate the already intricate trade-offs, especially given the present Admin's utter obsession with reducing every problem it encounters down to its LCD:'political leverage' to retain Power (forever, if that can be arranged) All I can see is (still struggling to think-neutrally-about This Admin) - if Shrub remains CIEIO, it will be quite worse for the awfulness of the penalties to US, than if Kerry [Anyone not-Bush] is the one with the Bagman at his side. We've brought the whole planet into real-close proximity with our colorful celebrity-bafflegab election style; Very Few IMhO "Love this Man" -- and only a little love (as, say JFK could muster even amidst the USSR folk, it turned out) could ameliorate the next Awful Choices. ie I haven't the foggiest IF there is a 'solution'. But there will be action, events and some result, day by day. (I would distrust-more.. any politician who, if he thought/said he had "a solution" -- proceeded to blurt it out in typ didactic Murican electioneering style. Next matters simply cannot benefit from or be run by some stupid fucking public poll - even if that's what we think we call an "election". Catch 22.) The Peepul would have to advance a bit of that 'faith'-based restraint, mostly on intangibles (not some silly 'Plan.pdf' offered for dissection) IMO. Hah.. [be nice to Dubya mode off] We haven't even talked about other consequences of the election: the fate of habeas and of citizenship rights, lots more just on the Fatherland front. I don't care how "sincerely" Bush believes his slogans, nor how many join him in them. He lives in a bubble. (A now pop-phrase, I note - but still apt.) What a Mess. Luck to us all - the whole planet.
Post #176,549 by mmoffitt 9/27/04 10:26:09 AM Reply	"Ridiculous"? Really... Washington -- The U.S. military death toll after 10 months of engagement in Iraq surpassed 500 this weekend, roughly matching the number of U.S. military personnel who died in the first four years of the U.S. military engagement in Vietnam. [link\|http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/18/MNGB44CJKR1.DTL\|http://www.sfgate.co...8/MNGB44CJKR1.DTL] So, comparisons are "ridiculous" until when? 60,000 dead US? 1 million dead Iraqies? When? bcnu, Mikem "The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism." -Ted Grant
Post #176,563 by bepatient 9/27/04 12:06:12 PM Reply	Right. Total troop commitment of less than 1000 in the first year, less than 5000 in the second year and remained under 25k for the 3rd and 4th. Given the troop levels in Iraq it is entirely likely that accidentals would have created more casualties than the first 2 years. Come on now. 60 times the casualties. (ok...58.2 to be exact). Major hostilities lasted for years. Come back to me in 2009. Then we'll talk. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #176,565 by mmoffitt 9/27/04 12:08:35 PM Reply	Yep. We'll prolly still be there in 2009. bcnu, Mikem "The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism." -Ted Grant
Post #176,566 by bepatient 9/27/04 12:11:41 PM Reply	Well prep for the question then. Are our people being airlifted out of Bagdhad? I pointed out elsewhere...we're still in all these places. Germany was 60 years ago. We're still there too. We never leave. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #176,694 by Ashton 9/28/04 3:46:12 AM Reply	Dream --> on.
Post #176,707 by bepatient 9/28/04 7:59:27 AM Reply	Aerosmith ROX dude If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

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