Post #175,911
9/23/04 11:25:36 AM
|
No, not necessarily.
He could be delusional.
Do you want to run the quagmire question by the families of the people that have been killed over there?
How about the families of the the locals that have been killed (who after all outnumber the US soldiers killed by about an order of magnitude)?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #175,936
9/23/04 1:28:11 PM
|
Do we want to compare..
...the number lost in conflict to the number of dead and maimed by the regime that was toppled?
Come now. We have yet to get even close even if you combine the totals.
But you're right...he could be delusional.
Same argument re: WW2 by the way. Were the millions worth it? Compared to the alternative...in the WW2 example we answer yes (in hindsight). We have no hindsight yet to this situation.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #175,946
9/23/04 1:52:52 PM
|
That comparison means nothing to the issue
of whether or not Iraq is a quagmire.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #175,953
9/23/04 2:15:38 PM
|
And if we are in and out
in under 3 -5 years...does it qualify?
It is too early to compare this to the real quagmires yet. It may well become one...but we >still< have significant troops deployed in alot of places that aren't being called "quagmire".
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,455
9/26/04 4:04:11 AM
|
Well, the US could leave tomorrow
and it would still be a quagmire, just that they wouldn't be stuck in it anymore.
Of course, you're absolutely right about the number of troops. And you're probably going to need them too.
In an ideal world, Bush would have left Iraq alone and concentrated on rebuilding Afghanistan. If a tenth of the kinds of resources that are going into Iraq were devoted to doing things like building highways in Afghanistan, the world would have a very different view of GWB and the US today. Instead, Afghanistan is still very unstable, and furthermore has a growing narcodollar influence as the opium trade is back in full swing.
Not only that, but if he'd waited a year or two and really did a Marshall plan job on Afghanistan, if he then wanted to talk to other countries in the ME about some things, he'd be doing it from a position of having proved his legitimacy.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #176,459
9/26/04 10:09:46 AM
|
Agree re: Afghan.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,470
9/26/04 12:52:15 PM
|
There's a very good article in the October Atlantic
which talks about the very serious and damaging mis-steps that the current administration has taken, with a fairly in-depth look at 2002.
On the quagmire question, there are two answers, and really neither one is entirely based on the time frame of US involvement. It's really based on the kinds of conditions that are found there before and after. If Iraq descends into warlordism and criminal capitalism (ie- organised crime runs the economy) then the US will have been responsible for creating a quagmire for the Iraqi people, regardless if the US spends one month or ten years there themselves. The jury's still out on that. In the meantime, the current situation looks like a quagmire in the immediate sense: low intensity conflict, local insurgency, slow but steady casualty rate (and the advances in med tech over the last fifteen years wrt trauma have kept the death rate a lot lower than it would have been in conflicts past), nearly no reliable way to tell the insurgent from the non-combatants (outside gender and age) and certainly no easy way, and being stuck between a rock and a hard place both politically and legally.
Under international law, the US is an occupying power and has certain legal obligations to the people of Iraq. Furthermore, if they cut and run and Iraq descends into chaos, nobody's going to believe anything they say for a generation. Legally, the US can't leave, and the political price for the US makes it very undesirable. OTOH, you're stuck in a conflict that certainly has all the pieces in place to be a quagmire. How to fix it?
There is a very real possibility that it can't be fixed. According to the article I read in the Atlantic, some career military types think Iraq would require two million soldiers there to be able to reliably secure and pacify the place, clean out both the fundie and criminal violent elements, and provide the kind of environment that could actually lead to decent elections and a real democratic government with no question as to its legitimacy.
This is the real shame of the missed opportunities in Afghanistan. The real truth is that the kind of project that the admin claims they're engaged in Iraq would have been a lot cheaper in both blood and treasure in Afghanistan, and would furthermore have made the current attempt in Iraq cheaper as well as the US would have been seen to be doing it for no reason other than security in Afghanistan. Simply put, Afghanistan is as poor as dirt, has no real wealth, and if the US had done the job right it would have been seen as being both self-interested and altruistic: self interested because of cleaning up the elements that attacked it, and altruistic because there would be no sense of collective punishment and because the motivation couldn't possibly have been driven by access to resources.
The whole thing is a huge mess. I think you're right when you say Kerry can't wave a magic wand to make it go away. However, I don't think you realise how much more intransigent the Rest of the West is going to become with the US if GWB wins again. Outside the US, he's viewed as a dangerous dishonest sociopathic clown. This in turn can create more problems as that animosity will make it harder for the US to get even a neutral result out of the current mess, let alone a good one.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #176,492
9/26/04 5:46:25 PM
|
If that's your paraphrase of the article
- kudos.
As to warlordism (aka ~ clear Corporate control of the people's putative representatives) and the influence of Fundies - these are apparently 12-14% of US population, yet currently are setting US policies:
We can't/won't correct these anti-democratic abuses of power in the US; WTF should anyone in the world imagine - we might to enforce such ideas We Cannot.. amongst 4 or 5 sects (about whom our ignorance is nearly complete) - as have been feuding for centuries ?!
It is a Silly Time to be alive.
|
Post #176,510
9/26/04 8:24:39 PM
|
Not entirely
There's one paragraph in there that really talks about the article. For the most part, the rest is what I think about it.
... and all that still leaves the question of "what to do now?" open and nearly unanswerable.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #175,961
9/23/04 2:53:40 PM
|
Wow.
...the number lost in conflict to the number of dead and maimed by the regime that was toppled?
Come now. We have yet to get even close even if you combine the totals. Wow. We're judging our civility by some interesting standards these days... bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,977
9/23/04 4:19:28 PM
|
Are we?
By leaving him there were we not condemning those in country to a continuance of that behavior?
Your position only says "better more of them than fewer of ours."
Regardless of wmd, link to terrorism et al, the regime was a murderous bunch.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #175,980
9/23/04 4:22:49 PM
|
What crap.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
|
Post #176,007
9/23/04 6:44:43 PM
|
Really?
So you are denying that the Hussein regime committed any atrocities? And I see quotes like [link|http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/04/07/Iraq_Holocaust_denied.html|this]: 'Local people would tell us of 10,000s of people buried at single grave sites and when we would get there they would be in multiple hundreds.' Wow. One site equivalent to all US casualties to date. Damn, though...the villagers he was slaughtering overstimated how many were actually slaughtered. Damn damn damn. By the end of this campaign that y'all seem to have launched here...Hussein will be guilty of less than a parking offense and the US will be the Great Satan by our own hand for removing him. And soon after...we're back to denying the holocost. To think, it all started with "Yeah we all know he's a really bad man, but he's no threat to us." and now its migrated to "He was a harmless guy...no really...he was". If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,011
9/23/04 7:07:30 PM
|
!!SHUN!!
What complete bullshit!
I had no idea you programmed Marlowe, but since your posts more and more resemble it's, I'd have to start considering the possibility....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #176,020
9/23/04 7:27:00 PM
|
Look at the progression.
Then come back with that.
Simple count will do. If (big goddamned if I know) the PM is actually successful and elections are held and we get out of country in 5 years (3 to go in that...and remember there'll always be a presence...hell we're in Germany now for 60 years.. we never really leave)...are the deaths of our servicemen in vain as many here are trying to suggest.
I say no. Period. Regardless of the reason, we likely saved more than we would have sacrificed by doing nothing.
Understand now?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,081
9/24/04 2:37:30 AM
|
Devil's advocate can sometimes work. But when this
transparent, it's really hard to tell whether you're putting us on badly - or yourself. As-if... the 'plight of some folks under some awful Bad regime' .. were of the slightest note or consequence to the Peepul, let alone imagining: to Rove et al! (Next you might be arguing that Dr. Kissinger is really a humanitarian who's just been greatly misunderstood over decades. Tell that one to Chile et al.)
Which of the 34.5 randomly shuffled Reasons for Immediate Solo Invasion are you meaning to defend here?
moi
|
Post #176,099
9/24/04 6:42:50 AM
|
Since when..
...has justification of war ever sounded good to the dead?
Since when has the historical perspective of that death being for the greater good ever been a comfort to the dead or their families?
And everyone seems to have fallen prey to the IMMEDIATE. If we can't fix it NOW, leave it alone, throw it away, get out, its not our problem...etc.
18 months.
Babies are still talked about in months at this stage.
This >peepul< is guaging things in terms outside of country. Think Spock. Good of the many..cha cha cha. ;-)
Who cares what the politicians think? Who started it is irrelevent (save for Nov when you touch the screen ;-). Its happened and how it is viewed in the few-cha is what the million dollar question is.
Continue the hysterics...
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,372
9/25/04 1:00:08 AM
9/25/04 1:09:47 AM
|
How lofty.. to find the Beginnings now 'Irrelevant'
when the seeds of folly were expressed so urgently and by so many (in US and marching abroad, in *Unprecedented numbers) so early-on: and were pointedly ignored, ridiculed, called odious names. It's going to be hard to make a case for
Staying --> The Course,
blindly, unthinkingly, stubbornly (and perhaps, stupidly?)
with troop and civilian losses following a Vietnam-era ramp-up. With the seeds od dead Iraqis' families and clans logarithmically multiplying the trouble-makers we see now to be cooperating, coordinating better each day.
Sorry but.. "just be patient" seems a pretty inappropriate denouement, whether calmly or Hysterically! phrased.
(umm Shouldn't that last word be 'Gonadically'? I mean, one cannot blame ALL the Hysteria at the Top on poor insouciant, disinterested-in-meetings Condoleeza, now can we?)
Maybe under more nearly-normal pre-War Gonadics.. ones where war was seemingly Forced On Us and not an Invasion Planned, this might be a noble sentiment about 'scale and relativity' in all things.
IMO, the Over-ness of this mess has begun, but the Facing is still nascent. Like Vietnam, still mouldering in Denial.. after all these years. Everybody will lose, as - It Was a Stupid Plan-less Plan! by irresponsible Ideologues.
[I simply cannot Believe that you buy the rhetoric of this impoverished Admin, actually..]
*
[link|http://www.easthamptonstar.com/20040909/col5.htm|http://www.easthampt...20040909/col5.htm]
Edit -typee
Edited by Ashton
Sept. 25, 2004, 01:09:47 AM EDT
|
Post #176,391
9/25/04 6:40:23 AM
|
Has it or has it not already occurred?
"stay the course" or not. The act cannot now be undone.
Justified or not...
A large gamble was taken. The results are not yet in.
Quite frankly I don't care who finishes it...
If we were to take the recommendations of the "side of reason", then we sell short our chances and by doing so the lives of our soldiers. (how this point continually is getting missed by you folks is beyond me)
Comparisons to Vietnam at this point are ridiculous. And believing, wholesale, all the negative press and denouncing any challenge to that immediately as lies is equally as foolish as believing this admin's rhetoric. (which I don't)
But there is still a chance that this stupid act can be successful. (even the blind squirrel..cha cha cha). The simple numbers game of justification is still on our side. (though those included in the number will still feel no comfort in this..lest I be forced to repeat myself again)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,449
9/26/04 2:08:35 AM
|
Since you seem to have stepped out of the debbil's advocate
auto-position, I'll try to put aside also, that normal homo-sap reaction to gehabt, Kindern. You're pretty much outnumbered here but you're valuable in that regard, since you're only dense on purpose. ;-)
[be nice to Dubya mode {ugh} on]
Obv nobody here has an inkling of a 'solution', even (also) stepping aside from recriminations and outrage felt. Several have parsed the next options. And whatever you, I or anyone personally feels re the bizarre details of How we got to today - I can only conclude with the others, equally bereft of any (even not-so-nice) 'solution':
There just may not be one. Just forks promising different forms, classes of pain.
We have barely begun reading the tea leaves re what the religio-mix in Iraq - should they become unmoored, unfettered, free to choose sides and tangle: might do to each other, let alone their 'consensus' re the US. Sunnis, Shias, Wahabs.. Kurds - all with ancient agenda, all held on a tight leash via the dictatorship. 'Til lately.
All the political maneuvering, lies (real or just imputed), disaffections of a large slice of the populations worldwide - never mind for this moment, blame-fixing: *these* are essential ingredients in forming some next idea of How!? TF to proceed.
And every aspect is, will remain debatable and politicized and intricate. (Our culture doesn't debate well or often)
I cannot imagine how Shrub/Rove could possibly galvanize that much sought other-nations' support; it's barely imaginable even with new blood as POTUS ... which then only just- might- barely assuage the now parboiling cauldron [??]
Every day: New dead Iraqis from the insurgents, clearly organizing better and better (who are: some Iraqi / some imports. Borders wide open in places). Cities/enclaves that are now extraterrritorial to either US or our surrogate Iraqi forces.
"Stay the Course" is -most unfortunately- a typical Bushspeak platitude, which ruins its perspicacity. At some point, any sane inheritor of this cauldron Has to consider leaving. Period.
And yes *everyone* realizes that if that is precipitate: even worse for our already irreparable reputation; the only question is.. can we repair it in a few years? (If we leave stupidly - make that a generation, at least.)
We've been snookered. Way I see it is - every person in "public life" is already in CYA mode; this egotism shall complicate the already intricate trade-offs, especially given the present Admin's utter obsession with reducing every problem it encounters down to its LCD:'political leverage' to retain Power (forever, if that can be arranged)
All I can see is (still struggling to think-neutrally-about This Admin) - if Shrub remains CIEIO, it will be quite worse for the awfulness of the penalties to US, than if Kerry [Anyone not-Bush] is the one with the Bagman at his side.
We've brought the whole planet into real-close proximity with our colorful celebrity-bafflegab election style; Very Few IMhO "Love this Man" -- and only a little love (as, say JFK could muster even amidst the USSR folk, it turned out) could ameliorate the next Awful Choices.
ie I haven't the foggiest IF there is a 'solution'. But there will be action, events and some result, day by day. (I would distrust-more.. any politician who, if he thought/said he had "a solution" -- proceeded to blurt it out in typ didactic Murican electioneering style. Next matters simply cannot benefit from or be run by some stupid fucking public poll - even if that's what we think we call an "election". Catch 22.)
The Peepul would have to advance a bit of that 'faith'-based restraint, mostly on intangibles (not some silly 'Plan.pdf' offered for dissection) IMO. Hah..
[be nice to Dubya mode off]
We haven't even talked about other consequences of the election: the fate of habeas and of citizenship rights, lots more just on the Fatherland front. I don't care how "sincerely" Bush believes his slogans, nor how many join him in them. He lives in a bubble. (A now pop-phrase, I note - but still apt.)
What a Mess.
Luck to us all - the whole planet.
|
Post #176,549
9/27/04 10:26:09 AM
|
"Ridiculous"? Really...
Washington -- The U.S. military death toll after 10 months of engagement in Iraq surpassed 500 this weekend, roughly matching the number of U.S. military personnel who died in the first four years of the U.S. military engagement in Vietnam. [link|http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/18/MNGB44CJKR1.DTL|http://www.sfgate.co...8/MNGB44CJKR1.DTL] So, comparisons are "ridiculous" until when? 60,000 dead US? 1 million dead Iraqies? When? bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #176,563
9/27/04 12:06:12 PM
|
Right.
Total troop commitment of less than 1000 in the first year, less than 5000 in the second year and remained under 25k for the 3rd and 4th.
Given the troop levels in Iraq it is entirely likely that accidentals would have created more casualties than the first 2 years.
Come on now.
60 times the casualties. (ok...58.2 to be exact). Major hostilities lasted for years.
Come back to me in 2009. Then we'll talk.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,565
9/27/04 12:08:35 PM
|
Yep. We'll prolly still be there in 2009.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #176,566
9/27/04 12:11:41 PM
|
Well prep for the question then.
Are our people being airlifted out of Bagdhad?
I pointed out elsewhere...we're still in all these places. Germany was 60 years ago. We're still there too.
We never leave.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,694
9/28/04 3:46:12 AM
|
Dream --> on.
|
Post #176,707
9/28/04 7:59:27 AM
|
Aerosmith ROX dude
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,117
9/24/04 10:00:46 AM
|
The crap is your "heartfelt" concern.
Since when have you been a tree hugging lover of the downtrodden masses? I'd guess about 2.7 seconds after Rove sent out the fax defining it as the new talking point.
Iraq was sold as a necessary war in the fight against terrorism. Reframing it as a necessary war to depose a despot is utter and complete bullshit.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
|
Post #176,171
9/24/04 11:37:08 AM
|
I'm not drinking the kool-aid dude.
We shouldn't be talking about this now...we should've been talking about it in 92-3 wen Hussein should've been taken care of.
Still, are you so sold on the fact that there is zero possibility that Iraq may end a better place for it?
If so, ok...you can sell their lives short. Thats your prerogative. I'm guess I'm not as pessimistic about their future. I could be wrong. So could you.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,183
9/24/04 12:02:02 PM
|
There's the Pollyanna I know.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #176,141
9/24/04 10:53:42 AM
9/24/04 12:47:32 PM
|
o0o0 what wonderful proof...
we even have Congressional Testimony of Iraqee soldiers ripping infants from incubators....
|
Post #176,204
9/24/04 12:53:47 PM
|
Can find some wonderful things..
..in our own newspapers sometimes too.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,223
9/24/04 1:41:00 PM
|
Yep...that's why no many are ticked at Dan Rather
we expect our Governments to lie to us.
|
Post #176,225
9/24/04 1:56:02 PM
|
Well...I kind of expect them to do it too, nowadays.
Unfortunately.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,231
9/24/04 2:15:57 PM
|
That, my friend, is owed exclusively to a Republican.
Richard Nixon, to be exact. He, head and shoulders above all who came before him and will ever follow him, shattered the myths of honesty and decency most Muricans had about their government.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #176,235
9/24/04 2:34:26 PM
|
Ross, is that you?
;-j
Honesty and decency in the US government has been an illusion since its founding. E.g. [link|http://www.oldnewspublishing.com/burr.htm|Hamilton and Burr]. I don't think Nixon was around in 1804.
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #176,239
9/24/04 2:42:01 PM
|
Besides, we shouldn't blindly trust those that govern us.
Which means Nixon probably did us a favour by reminding us. :-)
I wonder whether I'm alone in believing that our government is potentially more dangerous to us, as they impact our lives much more directly. The enemy excels at randomly killing people here and there (sometimes in large numbers) but they haven't had much success beyond that.
|
Post #176,244
9/24/04 3:04:33 PM
|
Well that's mighty cynical
I'd say, oh, the Wilson or Roosevelt regime were a damn sight closer to a summer day than a season in hell.
-drl
|
Post #176,247
9/24/04 3:17:10 PM
|
I was talking about the press, goof.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #176,008
9/23/04 6:47:53 PM
9/23/04 6:48:25 PM
|
oops
dupe.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Sept. 23, 2004, 06:48:25 PM EDT
|
Post #176,002
9/23/04 6:24:43 PM
|
I seem to recall an issue with the mass graves in Iraq....
At the heart of the questions are the numbers so far identified in Iraq's graves. Of 270 suspected grave sites identified in the last year, 55 have now been examined, revealing, according to the best estimates that The Observer has been able to obtain, around 5,000 bodies. Forensic examination of grave sites has been hampered by lack of security in Iraq, amid widespread complaints by human rights organisations that until recently the graves have not been secured and protected. [link|http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html| Guardian ] 5000 bodies so far. Given our current rate of finding bodies, we probably hit 25,000.
|
Post #176,010
9/23/04 7:02:08 PM
|
Hey, if you're Sunni...
"...a continuance of that behavior" is in your best interest!
It's an ill wind...
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
