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New Re: Just what would you suggest be done?
>Quoting communists and socialists has never really been all that popular in the States to boot (since the 1920's).

Point out any flaw in their perspectives/analysis that the US bombing WILL kill more innocents than the 9/11 tragedy and serves no real purpose.
[link|http://www.zmag.org/monbiotbackyard.htm|If some people are "confused" about this war, it may be because they remember the rationale for it: Killing thousands of civilians is unconscionable.


Though you wouldn't know much about it from watching TV news or skimming the front pages, large numbers of Afghans -- many of them children and
elderly -- are facing the likelihood of starvation because the bombing has forced recurrent halts to the movement of food-aid trucks from Pakistan into
Afghanistan. Concern is growing among humanitarian aid workers that about 100,000 people are now in imminent peril. By winter, the number could
be in the millions.


Meanwhile, on television, we see footage of air-dropped meals that amount to no more than 1 percent of what's needed to prevent people from
starving. That's called good PR.
]

Point out any flaw in their perspectives/analysis that the US is indeed EXcluding CIA and the US of A as a "terrorist training camp/sponsor state" as per the US war Against Terrorism's definition.

[link|http://www.zmag.org/monbiotbackyard.htm|For the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at al-Qaida's door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or WHISC. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush's government. ]


Point out any flaw in their perspectives/analysis that the US attack on Afghanistan is unlawful and violates the rule of law because the Taliban regime in Afghanistan is not willing to handover OBL without any proof which the US and UK claimed they have (anyone seen any?)

[link|http://www.zmag.org/whatssocomples.htm|And what is Washington\ufffds agenda? Remarkably the stated aim is to get bin Laden and to try him or perhaps just execute him ourselves.

We could stop the bombing and have him tried in a third country, the Taliban has noted, but that\ufffds not acceptable. So for this
minuscule gradation of difference, we are told that Washington is willing to risk 7 million people. Behind the rhetoric, to me the real
goals appear to be to delegitimate international law, to establish that Washington will get its way regardless of impediments and that
we can and will act unilaterally whenever it suits us \ufffd the technical term for which is to ensure that our threats remain \ufffdcredible\ufffd --and
to propel a long-term war on terrorism to entrench the most reactionary policies in the U.S. and around the globe, and, along with all
that, to terminate bin Laden and others. Risking seven million people\ufffds lives for these aims is worse than doing it only for the minuscule
gradation of trying bin Laden ourselves rather than having a third country do it, because the additional reasons are all grotesquely
negative, supposing such calculus is even manageable by a sane mind. ]
New Simple...
You write:
"Point out any flaw in their perspectives/analysis that the US bombing WILL kill more innocents than the 9/11 tragedy and serves no real purpose."

Is this a competition? Bin Laden probably didn't hate any ONE person in the Trade Centers or the African embassies or the Kohl either. He disliked our country. And our country sure as hell should dislike the shit out of any country that harbors this man...

Serves no real purpose? And a life sentence does nothing to deter drug dealers or rapists? How about the death penalty? How about the good old-fashioned Mafioso blood vengeance? There has to be an "or else" established or every other Charlie Manson wannabe will come crawling out of their collective rocks to bomb the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre or Big Ben. You don't blow up buildings with civilian jets during peacetime and expect the nation to sit on its collective ass and "rationalize" with terrorists do you? How naive can you be?

Issue 2
What the CIA does is irrelevant at this point. Going forward, we need to get some kind of accountability for what they do. No problem with most of that issue as written. Should add that the CIA, KGB, etc... are all assholes and every country has them... They do serve a function though it's just not pretty or kind.

Issue 3
The Taliban are not a recognized government by the United Nations. Even the Arab League doesn't recognize them... at this point all the rest becomes irrelevant but I'll still bite. International law only applies to Governments who abide by international law. The Taliban do not. To defend a group with such a terrible civil rights record is asinine, that allows Al Quaida to train terrorists is ridiculous, and one that has done nothing to alleviate the suffering of it's own people... I'm at a total loss... What's to defend? I wish I were more eloquent but I'll leave it at that...


I have no problem with Socialism or Communism except that they haven't worked anywhere... They are merely more Utopian ideas that sound very good on paper... the devil is in the details. They deny a human beings fundamental biological need for territorialism. Soon, some animals are more equal than others... I'm not trying to insult you personally, but it's pretty hard not to load up on a statements like your last post. I commend you for trying to take an opposing view, but sometimes the majority is dead on right, as is the case now.
Note - edited to get rid of late night spelling errors...

Just a few thoughts,

Screamer

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."

P. Townshend

"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
Expand Edited by screamer Nov. 9, 2001, 12:16:27 PM EST
New Your country shrugs at massive civvy deaths ]:->
What is the worlds preocupation with who we kill? A couple of million here a couple of million there while the rest of the world is massacreeing its own populations in the name of me right you wrong. Aside from the euro's who in the last 15 yrs got tired of 700 years of killing the shit out of each other the rest of ya are still hard at it. Why begrudge us a few? (not you personally but in general). We are new and still have a few lessons to learn like foreign policy is not a short term program. What do you expect of a nation whose fortune rides on the quartly report?
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Right to Life, Bill.. Sacredness of Life.
The sacredness of life from zygote ---> onwards (Or was that just til birth? then the death penalty applies?)

I'm sure there are thousands of our fellow citizens with these high moral standards and all - who wish no harm to come to any er aging zygote. Shouldn't we poll some of these spiritually advanced ones re our plans?

Can anyone doubt that they will vote as a bloc - to preserve that Right to Life? Not murder these folk in their wombs ^h^h caves.




Aren' you ashamed. Now?


Ashton

I was a zygote too!
(Remember: third-quarter - that zygote's life merely changes local address)
Consistency. Don't leave a bunker without it.
New Fundamental flaw here.
Ideas roughly lumped as 'socialism' and 'communism' have never been tried - though elements of socialism are welcomed (if we rename them suitably) - most Muricans [??] love welfare, but just not for the undeserving. (That of course cannot be the case re any 'me'.) You do appreciate that those are advanced ideas - [like say: sharing?] - for some advanced, evolved culture we might imagine someday to develop - don't you?

(Let's not even start on what happened in the USSR. None of the above, at any time.)

Absent an actual world government with teeth - we all behave according to our species' alt. designation, Man: the lying animal.

*THIS* is not the time for examining our assumptions and behavior since 1776; it is War Time. See? Those analyses we reserve for Peace Time. That is when we examine our behavior for lucidity, inconsistency and other errors - and labor to correct those aberrations - as we strive to improve conditions for all humans, not just for our Office-tribe or Sibling-tribe. Clear?









Except, being human, I lied:
There is No Time when we do that last. We just tell our children that story - as we understand that they are innocent enough to see how ugly it could get: if we didn't actually question our assumptions periodically. What else Could we tell them? Eventually they get it and stop asking those questions, the little bastards.

{sigh}

HTH.

(You didn't expect an actual explanation for the hypocritical crap we export <--> that comes back to bite us on collective asses.. now did you? Euphemism is our crutch; Sanctimony our stick for whacking, and the Ostrich is the Real National Bird. Our God is [$] except during some Holiday gift exchanging days. Is it much different over there?)



Ashton
Lying homo-sap
     Alternative views - (TTC) - (55)
         Thanks! Mother lode... and Molly Ivins too - - (Ashton)
         Re: Alternative views - (TTC) - (1)
             Fine link this one - (boxley)
         "Marginalized views" would be a more appropriate title. - (marlowe) - (51)
             The point you don't get... - (inthane-chan) - (50)
                 Close enough, Thane-san.. close enough. - (Ashton) - (49)
                     I'm not betting on it. - (Brandioch) - (47)
                         Just what would you suggest be done? - (screamer) - (46)
                             Covered in another thread. - (Brandioch) - (30)
                                 But when we try >that<... - (bepatient) - (28)
                                     No quarrel with that list - (Ashton)
                                     WTO? - (Brandioch) - (26)
                                         Exploitation vs. Protectionism - (ChrisR) - (23)
                                             Well said. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                             Develop local businesses. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                                 Catch 22 - (bepatient) - (20)
                                                     Easy answer. - (Brandioch) - (19)
                                                         Re: Easy answer. - (bepatient) - (18)
                                                             Exploitation vs development. - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                                 Re: Exploitation vs development. - (bepatient) - (16)
                                                                     Pattern recognition time, again.. - (Ashton) - (15)
                                                                         Keep up... - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                                             OK I think we have a platform here - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                                                 Wow... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                     Yes, bad association: *The Nothing Party* it is! - (Ashton)
                                                                                 Re: OK I think we have a platform here - (TTC) - (5)
                                                                                     reread the treaty of the high seas - (boxley)
                                                                                     Correction... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                         Re: Correction... - (TTC) - (2)
                                                                                             I don't think we're interested in "moral high ground" - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                 Re: I don't think we're interested in "moral high ground" - (TTC)
                                                                             Re: Keep up... - (wharris2) - (3)
                                                                                 Great.... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                     I was kind. - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                         Thanks -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                             point of order - (boxley)
                                         I think it's dangerous... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                             Thanks UK for the term, 'sticky wicket' :( -NT - (Ashton)
                                 You'll get no argument here... - (screamer)
                             Re: Just what would you suggest be done? - (TTC) - (4)
                                 Simple... - (screamer)
                                 Your country shrugs at massive civvy deaths ]:-> - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Right to Life, Bill.. Sacredness of Life. - (Ashton)
                                 Fundamental flaw here. - (Ashton)
                             You say that as if it were SO OBVIOUSLY a good thing. - (CRConrad) - (9)
                                 What are *you* babbling about? - (wharris2) - (1)
                                     Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot - (CRConrad)
                                 CRC - My European nemesis... - (screamer) - (6)
                                     "Quote just a tad further down in same post"? No effing fun! - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                         Stop it! Stop it! - (Ashton)
                                         Well Da was a shop steward UAW, Eddie Burns his left hand - (boxley) - (2)
                                             Why don't you go back where you came from :-) - (screamer) - (1)
                                                 workin on it :) -NT - (boxley)
                                         I'll raise your meese and ... - (screamer)
                     I'm not betting on it. - (Brandioch)

I say, I say now Reason! Won't you put your blue jeans on?
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