Somebody has to say these, may as well be me

Post #172,716

9/4/04 9:13:19 AM

1. It's incidents like this that show what a detestable slander these moral equivalence arguments are. I'm no fan of Putin's government, but they're way better than these bastards.

2. Putin's biggest mistake is he thinks he can fight terrorism locally, like some sort of international law enforcement problem. It doesn't work that way. You need to destroy the culture that spawns the evil. Kill the root. (Which is *not* poverty, by the way.)

2a. Corollary: we're in a war. Let's fight to win.

3. You can't win a hostage situation. So focus on avoiding them. Short term tactics: better security. Long term strategy: see the points above and below.

4. You can't win a hostage situation. You can only lose big now or lose bigger later. It's tempting to give in. Even Reagan did that - it's how the whole Iran Contra thing got started. Whatever you do, never reward hostage taking. Never. Regard the hostages as already dead, and focus on delivering justice to their killers.

4a. Putin did the second best thing possible by storming the place. For how he could have done better, see #2 above. For how he could have done worse, see #4 above.

5. Expressions of sadness and regret never helped anything. Talk is cheap, and hugs aren't worth much more.

Words may fail others, but not me. My concept space is better equipped to deal with such events. If something astonishes you, that means you've been clueless about something.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]

Post #172,736

by Nightowl

9/4/04 2:15:01 PM

Two things I disagree with

4a. Putin did the second best thing possible by storming the place. For how he could have done better, see #2 above. For how he could have done worse, see #4 above.

First one is wrong. Putin didn't storm the place. A bomb went off that wasn't intended to, (prematurely), and everyone panicked. Kids tried to flee, gunmen tried to shoot them as they fled, and the forces trying to negotiate shot at the gunment trying to shoot the kids. It was a mass chaos, not something that was intended to be caused.

5. Expressions of sadness and regret never helped anything. Talk is cheap, and hugs aren't worth much more.

And I disagree here. Expressions of sadness and regret ALWAYS help the victims to deal with the tragedy. They also help those of us who are left behind, or who are too far removed to be of any help. Offering condolences and comfort is the one thing ANYONE can do, no matter how far away they are, or who they are.

Talk is good too, it's something that helps people come to terms with things. And sometimes it's useful when trying to get a peaceable solution determined, but it isn't always cheap, sometimes you pay a heavy price for saying what you think to someone. And hugs, well hugs are always welcome, they are yet another thing anyone can offer both physically if they're close enough, or mentally if they aren't.

I think you haven't been hugged enough, Marlowe. (HUG) :)

Words may fail others, but not me. My concept space is better equipped to deal with such events. If something astonishes you, that means you've been clueless about something.

I'm not so much as astonished, as well, stunned by the thought of such directed violence against young children. I'm certainly not clueless, I'm not one of those people who believes naively that "It can't happen here." It DOES and CAN happen anywhere, anytime anyplace, and that's something I never forget.

One just has to wonder how those terrorists felt deep INSIDE about killing helpless fleeing children.

Nightowl >8#

"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer

Post #172,741

by rcareaga

9/4/04 3:02:06 PM

172716/172736

A match made in heaven.

cordially,

Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

Post #172,742

by Nightowl

9/4/04 3:05:01 PM

9/4/04 3:10:13 PM

Sorry

I'm already happily married. :)

Nightowl >8#

Edit: Besides, I like my men to be a little less "fiery" ;)

"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 4, 2004, 03:10:13 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #172,744

by rcareaga

9/4/04 3:23:11 PM

You misunderstand

I meant merely that in the owlet marlowe at last finds a foeswoman worthy of his steel.

and..."fiery"? There's far more smoke than flame to be had from the bot...think of a puddle of burning tar.

cordially,

Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

Post #172,745

by Nightowl

9/4/04 3:25:37 PM

Ah, sorry about that

I think I was just thinking of what the line usually means.

Thanks Rcareaga. :)

And yeah, you're right, he's mostly a puff of smoke here and there. ;)

Nightowl >8#

"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer

Post #172,923

by marlowe

9/7/04 9:12:59 AM

I'll grant 4a, given latest info, but stand firm on 5

(Only the letter of 4a, not the spirit.)

Comforting words are a painkiller, not a remedy. Painkillers are addictive.

Give your condolences if you must, but be sure you know when to stop. The way to comfort the afflicted is to put paid to the affliction.

Post #172,928

by jb4

9/7/04 10:42:31 AM

"painkillers are addictive"

So's hate. Maybe you should wean yourself off of that drug before you go pontificating about any other.

jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

Post #173,546

by marlowe

9/10/04 12:45:39 PM

Tell that to the Democrats, Islamists and the Left.

They're doing all the hating. All I'm doing is facing the facts.

Post #173,589

by pwhysall

9/10/04 4:37:59 PM

What about Chechnya?

You're noticably silent on that issue.

And Northern Ireland.

Post #174,805

by Another Scott

9/17/04 11:23:58 AM

A proposal from S. Frederick Starr

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27550-2004Sep16.html|Washington Post]:

The peace plan on which Duma members and Chechen leaders agreed included the same formula worked out a year earlier: Chechnya's continued legal membership in the Russian Federation, but with firm guarantees that it would enjoy the maximum degree of self-rule and autonomy. Maskhadov was quoted as saying he would accept this outcome as the best way of preserving the ethnic existence of the Chechen people. This lay to rest the red herring of secession about which Putin preached to grieving parents in Beslan after the schoolhouse attack there. In Liechtenstein the two sides differed only on such secondary points as whether Russian or joint Russian-Chechen forces should guard the southern border or whether the rest of Chechnya should be demilitarized.

What happened to these initiatives? When asked at a news conference about the first meeting, Putin flatly denied that it had taken place. When word got out about the second, the Russian White House said it was a scheme devised by Boris Berezovsky, a dissident oligarch, to discredit Putin, even though Berezovsky was in no way connected with it. In short, Putin brushed aside the proposals.

[...]

It is no secret that there are terrorists among revenge-seeking Chechens and that there are radical Islamists among the desperate population of that land. But if Putin persists in painting all Chechens with the same brush of terrorism and Wahhabism, he will block the only remaining path to a peaceful solution and deny Russians and Chechens the only approach known to have the support of responsible figures on both sides.

Putin's a big part of the problem, but it's not clear whether anyone is willing or able to stand up to him and force him to moderate his policies.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #172,943

by Nightowl

9/7/04 12:25:22 PM

Re: I'll grant 4a, given latest info, but stand firm on 5

(Only the letter of 4a, not the spirit.)

Thanks. :)

Comforting words are a painkiller, not a remedy. Painkillers are addictive.

I agree there too, they aren't a remedy, they just help the victim cope.

Give your condolences if you must, but be sure you know when to stop. The way to comfort the afflicted is to put paid to the affliction.

Oh absolutely. If you coddle a victim too much, they'll never get past the issue, (ex: if you cater to a rape victim's feaar of going outside, they'll never do it etc.), so you do have to give condolences, but also know when to step back and let the person learn to live with their fears and pains again.

Have a good day, Marlowe! :)

Nightowl >8#

"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer

Post #172,743

by ChrisR

9/4/04 3:13:22 PM

Speaking of cheap talk

Putin's biggest mistake is he thinks he can fight terrorism locally, like some sort of international law enforcement problem. It doesn't work that way.

What fucking planet do you live on? Putin would like nothing better to get recognition that the problem in Chechnya is an international terrorism problem. Note that they are harping that 10 of the dead perpetrators are Arab. It's the west that has thus far tried to categorize it as a "local" problem, with the U.S. equivicating on the point. After all, it was our freedom fighters in Afghanistan that was as responsible for the fall of the Berlin wall as any other item that was in the defense budget.

Expressions of sadness and regret never helped anything.

So we should show no signs of emotion? Excuse me but the failure to show compassion is exactly the hole in which we would treat others as subhuman.

Talk is cheap... Words may fail others, but not me. My concept space is better equipped to deal with such events.

And just what have you done for your cause in terms of sacrifice? Have you killed any Arabs lately? Have you sent your children over to a far off country where they are hated and despised and constantly targeted?

Your chicken hawk bullshit is nothing but cheap fucking talk. You don't mind sending me or my kids to go do your killing for you, but damn if you'd ever get off your lazy ass and put your words into action.

The NewCons are nothing but a bunch of draft dodging bullshit artists that want to line their pockets with the money paid for by the blood of others.

Post #172,771

by pwhysall

9/5/04 2:53:15 AM

Exercise for Marlowe.

Please solve the Chechen problem without ceding Chechnya to the rebels.

Then, when you have provided a solution to that, you may proceed to solve the Northern Ireland question.

Use both sides of the paper. You may not use Google for this exercise.

Post #172,781

by inthane-chan

9/5/04 10:19:51 AM

You forgot to tell him...

...not to use nukes or genocide, either.

What will we do when we are Gods?

Post #172,872

by Ashton

9/6/04 6:06:57 PM

Well then, that only leaves

the Ashcroft/Diebold Covenant:

Conscripted army of 5M or so Peacekeepers to manage the Empire, one smoldering city-block at-a-time. Surely the Nintendo Eloi will join the Elite Volunteer Schutzstaffel, along with the scions of our other National War Heroes (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rove, Kristol et al - who earlier.. were saving themselves for this now obv. Highest Priority)

Kinda a nice ring to, Obergruppenfuehrer Klaus Philbot, resplendent in that dark-mauve uniform with the shiny black boots, gold embroidered epaulets and the stunning Eagle-over-the-Globe lapel insignia. (No one can even see a bulge.. from the miniaturized Model Airplane Controller in his smartly-tailored inner pocket - via which he sends his minions of Risk-at-a-Distance Stinger-gnats into er combat?)

One might long to see the Purple Heart added to his chest decorations; what's the loss of a few limbs when you're fighting the Perpetual War-on-Peace?

Carrion - - -

Post #172,920

by marlowe

9/7/04 8:54:04 AM

It's very simple, once you decide not to complicate it

First teach the world that hostage taking and others terrorist acts will be rewarded only with death. Then wait a bit, while all these problems begin to solve themselves.

Those who get the message, take themselves out of the equation. Those who don't, are taken out of the equation by us. Subsequently they go on to the hereafter to be judged by Darwin and his angels.

It put an end the Assassin cult of Alamut (though their spiritual heirs have recently risen up, due to current weakness on the part of the civilized.) It worked against the Barbary pirates. It put paid to the Nazi regime. It's making life increasingly difficult for Sadr. And it's already starting to yield results in [link|http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/pale-j23.shtml|Arafat land].

Just because you don't have the answers doesn't mean there no answers. It could simply be that you're not bright enough. Or that you're trapped in some sort of neo-Marxist interpretation that won't let you see the way out. Which, come to think of it, is just a particular way of being stupid.

To the sufficiently stupid, any problem is intractible.

Post #172,952

by pwhysall

9/7/04 1:27:38 PM

If it's very simple, provide the answer.

Although you do wave your hands in style, I must say.

Post #173,053

by GBert

9/8/04 8:36:07 AM

Sounds nice...

"First teach the world that hostage taking and others terrorist acts will be rewarded only with death. Then wait a bit, while all these problems begin to solve themselves."

That's not a solution -- that's a rant.

First of all, _all_ human behavior is rewarded only with death (and much too soon) -- and the world has been fully aware of it for a really, really long time.

Second, while we're at it, let's solve a couple other problems:

Let's rid the human race of sexually transmitted diseases -- strict monogamy for 80 to 100 years would just about do it.

Let's improve my standard of living -- if everybody in the US would just give me a dime, the increased utility to me would far outweigh the sum of the decreased utilities to everybody else.

These may seem unrelated to your "answer", but as game theory teaches us, the benefits to local cheating while everybody else toes the line can be high -- high enough to derail even the best-meaning ideologies in practice.

Who would you trust not to ever deal with terrorists?

Giovanni

"Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for. You don't need George Bush for that."

Post #173,066

by Another Scott

9/8/04 10:25:08 AM

OT: Panhandler Joe, is that you?

[link|http://panhandler.refers.to/|Got a dollar?]

;-j

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #173,068

by bepatient

9/8/04 10:27:08 AM

Nope. thats not p-joey

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #173,069

by Another Scott

9/8/04 10:28:36 AM

Saw the ;-j right? I know he's not; just reminded me of PJ.

Post #173,081

by deSitter

9/8/04 11:41:41 AM

PJ is Imric, and Imric is PJ, no? Gainfully employed now

-drl

Post #173,086

by boxley

9/8/04 11:56:36 AM

back when he was wineing a lot :-)

These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #173,142

by imric

9/8/04 3:25:16 PM

Hey, things were bad!

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.