I just heard about this and had the same thought.

Post #172,587 by mmoffitt 9/3/04 9:40:43 AM Reply	I just heard about this and had the same thought. I remember hauling flowers up the hill to the first day of school in Kiev. I can't believe this has happened. I'm terribly upset about this and hope all turns out well. bcnu, Mikem "I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth." V.I. Lenin
Post #172,591 by Arkadiy 9/3/04 10:34:16 AM Reply	The answer is in 100 dead, 200 wounded. Botched rescue attempt, or, actually, not even that. According to local FSB chief, the thugs allowed Ministry of Emergency people (Russian FEMA) to pickup dead bodies, then changed their mind (or there was a misunderstanding). Things escalated from there. To quote Russian prime minister from the first major hostage crisis in Russia (98? 96?): "We wanted the best and we did the usual" (Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда). -- I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd -- [link\|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html\|James Lileks]
Post #172,601 by mmoffitt 9/3/04 11:45:26 AM Reply	Oh, God. Words fail. bcnu, Mikem "I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth." V.I. Lenin
Post #172,618 by Nightowl 9/3/04 1:14:27 PM Reply	I agree Have no idea what to say, except how awful. I'll keep the victim's families in my prayers, and also pray for safe release of the rest of the hostages. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #172,611 by tuberculosis 9/3/04 12:42:13 PM 8/21/07 5:54:50 AM Reply	What did they want? The terrorists. What was the point? What were they trying to say? Why were they trying to say it in Russia? That was lovely cheese. --Wallace, The Wrong Trousers Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:54:50 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #172,612 by deSitter 9/3/04 12:45:18 PM Reply	It's those kwazy Chechyens They want to be free of Russia. Again there is an admixture of Islam and nationalism. -drl
Post #172,636 by ChrisR 9/3/04 2:30:43 PM Reply	Part of the problem is defining "They" In the Che Guevara scheme of things, it is said you only need a dozen hard core militants to start a revolution. It's likely that there are Chechens who side with the Russians, there are Chechens that participate in the guerilla war, there are Chechens who somewhat sympathize with independence, and there are Chechens who just want to go on with their lives (which is probably the majority). Problem is that these groups all blend together, events cause the lines to shift and be gray, and it can be near impossible to distinguish friend from foe. Personally I think kidnapping and killing athletes, journalists, and children, and blowing up buses and airplanes, crosses a line where I lose sympathy for any cause which you may wish to put on the agenda. But the radical Palestinians have been practicing these tactics for years and they seem to constantly garner attention and sympathy from their neighbors and the world at large. So I suppose that just means we'll see more and more of this stuff. Non-violence as a strategy seems to have failed to taken hold.
Post #172,637 by deSitter 9/3/04 2:36:39 PM Reply	Agreed There was not a little of that in the birth of Israel - or Ireland. Was Begin a terrorist? Probably. Was Michael Collins? -drl
Post #172,638 by ChrisR 9/3/04 2:39:59 PM Reply	or closer to home George Washington? The Brits probably thought so at the time. Strange how half the world is seeing borders become more and more fuzzy, whilst the other half wants to carve itself into smaller and smaller pieces.
Post #172,641 by deSitter 9/3/04 2:44:27 PM Reply	Washington? No way! MY heroes are nae terrierists! -drl
Post #172,680 by JayMehaffey 9/3/04 6:01:22 PM Reply	Hard to say By mondern standards our revolutionary war was fairly clean. But there where atrocities on both sides. On the British side it was mostly the non-British mercenaries, who where interested in picking up as much loot as the could as they went. On the American side it was mostly beatings of loyalists and torching of their farms and houses. Jay
Post #172,669 by mmoffitt 9/3/04 4:39:52 PM Reply	The reason Palestineans get sympathy. It's called "guilt". We didn't want the Jews, so we gave them Palestine. We still feel (deeply suppressed I'll grant) guilty about that. bcnu, Mikem "I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth." V.I. Lenin
Post #172,615 by mmoffitt 9/3/04 1:05:53 PM Reply	What they need. Is for the entire Chechen region to be turned into glass. bcnu, Mikem "I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth." V.I. Lenin
Post #172,623 by deSitter 9/3/04 1:34:42 PM Reply	Re: What they need. That would of course work - we could just kill all the Muslims or make them into slave labor. Of course, that wouldn't exactly be right now, would it? I can't understand why Russia doesn't just cut them loose. Must be oil or seaports. -drl
Post #172,630 by Arkadiy 9/3/04 1:48:21 PM Reply	Two reasons Not sure which one is the more important one. They actually were cut loose under Yeltsin, in all practical sences of the word. Russia lost the First Chechen War. Then, one day, they decided to strike across Russian border into Dagestan, another small quasy-republic in Russian Federation. And, at about the same time, appartment buildings in Moscow and Leningrad started to blow up (that may have been a set-up by FSB, no one is sure). So the reasons were: 1) they wouldn't leave Russia alone 2) Putin needed an enemy to look tough against. His popularity soared after he "won" the Second Chechen War. -- I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd -- [link\|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html\|James Lileks]
Post #172,631 by Another Scott 9/3/04 1:53:08 PM Reply	It wouldn't stop with Chechnya (19kB .gif) [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2355419.stm\|BBC Q&A on Chechnya]. This map illustrates the geography of the region: [image\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/460000/images/_460353_chechnya_caucusus2.gif\|0\|Caucauses\|284\|300] Many of the rebels don't want to stop with Chechnya, and [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/429735.stm\|Dagestan] has already been a target. Caspian oil (routed through Azerbaijan) certainly is a strategic factor in the calculus on both sides. Cheers, Scott.
Post #172,649 by a6l6e6x 9/3/04 3:55:10 PM Reply	Finally the truth. It's about the oil! Alex "If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
Post #172,663 by mmoffitt 9/3/04 4:33:58 PM Reply	No, it wouldn't be "right". But, then, ... can you tell me the value of "negogiating" with the lower pond scum that could use children like this? People who shoot at children as they try to flee? They're worth what? Sorry, and I know I did this before when those of their type ilk flew airplanes into buildings, but I swear, increasingly I am left to believe that it is time we culled a few for the sake of the herd. bcnu, Mikem "I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth." V.I. Lenin
Post #172,717 by marlowe 9/4/04 9:20:35 AM Reply	And then the West Bank? And Tikrit? What makes the Chechens worse than any other group of murderous malcontents chafing under necessary and well-deserved oppression? And to think they call me a warmonger. I've never advocated nuking a whole ethnic group. We need a missile defense to protect ourselves against people not much unlike you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others. "All the news you wish would go away" [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #172,702 by Arkadiy 9/3/04 10:58:29 PM Reply	Another update [link\|http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040904/ts_nm/russia_school_dc\|http://story.news.ya.../russia_school_dc] It was not a botched rescue operation, it was a botched hostage-taking. Terrorists' bomb went off by itself, and all hell broke loose. Children were fleeing, the SOBs were firing at them, and the Army started firing back. Over 200 dead, more than 500 injured, 3 terrorists taken alive(!). -- I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd -- [link\|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html\|James Lileks]
Post #172,709 by Nightowl 9/4/04 3:12:19 AM Reply	Re: Another update It was not a botched rescue operation, it was a botched hostage-taking. Terrorists' bomb went off by itself, and all hell broke loose. Children were fleeing, the SOBs were firing at them, and the Army started firing back. Over 200 dead, more than 500 injured, 3 terrorists taken alive(!). How stupid, securing a bomb in place with TAPE.... (shakes head sadly) I heard about the finale of the situation on the news, and just stared dumbstruck at the scene... it was all I could do not to cry, I thought Columbine was bad, but this.... this was so much worse. I don't think I'll ever forget it. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer

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