Post #172,379
9/2/04 9:27:47 AM
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About the hostage situation in Russia
The date of it makes it especially heinous. Hurting a school on September 1 is beyond the pale. September 1 in Russia is a schoolchildren's day. All schools open at the same time, and it's a major event. You see smiling kids running to school or walking proudly with parents. Teachers get tons of flowers. Every school has a very majestic opening ceremony. It's one of the good traditions that survived from Soviet times.
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
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Post #172,416
9/2/04 11:28:52 AM
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I've been really concerned about this issue
I didn't get to see much on the news about it yesterday, have they made any progress in rescuing any of the kids or parents?
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,419
9/2/04 11:36:42 AM
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Nope
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
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Post #172,423
9/2/04 12:13:42 PM
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Some good news
My local news just said the terrorists released 31 parents and children, but there are still many inside the school.
Maybe they are working towards a solution that won't involve everyone being killed, we can only hope.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,568
9/2/04 11:58:51 PM
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Condolences.
This event may have escalated Horror to a new level of homo-sap Bestiality. Still, and thus-far at least - they are not blaming this outrage on a particular $DEITY. Seems to be all about Nation un-Building, perhaps the strongest secession-bid since the Lost US Uncivil War ??
And with Putin, depending on next actions - they may get a Country nuked. Before the Neoconmen get a chance. What think?
Ashton
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Post #172,587
9/3/04 9:40:43 AM
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I just heard about this and had the same thought.
I remember hauling flowers up the hill to the first day of school in Kiev. I can't believe this has happened. I'm terribly upset about this and hope all turns out well.
bcnu,
Mikem
"I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth."
V.I. Lenin
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Post #172,591
9/3/04 10:34:16 AM
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The answer is in
100 dead, 200 wounded. Botched rescue attempt, or, actually, not even that. According to local FSB chief, the thugs allowed Ministry of Emergency people (Russian FEMA) to pickup dead bodies, then changed their mind (or there was a misunderstanding). Things escalated from there.
To quote Russian prime minister from the first major hostage crisis in Russia (98? 96?): "We wanted the best and we did the usual" (Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда).
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
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Post #172,601
9/3/04 11:45:26 AM
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Oh, God. Words fail.
bcnu,
Mikem
"I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth."
V.I. Lenin
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Post #172,618
9/3/04 1:14:27 PM
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I agree
Have no idea what to say, except how awful. I'll keep the victim's families in my prayers, and also pray for safe release of the rest of the hostages.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,611
9/3/04 12:42:13 PM
8/21/07 5:54:50 AM
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What did they want?
The terrorists. What was the point? What were they trying to say? Why were they trying to say it in Russia?
That was lovely cheese.
--Wallace, The Wrong Trousers
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Post #172,612
9/3/04 12:45:18 PM
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It's those kwazy Chechyens
They want to be free of Russia. Again there is an admixture of Islam and nationalism.
-drl
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Post #172,636
9/3/04 2:30:43 PM
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Part of the problem is defining "They"
In the Che Guevara scheme of things, it is said you only need a dozen hard core militants to start a revolution. It's likely that there are Chechens who side with the Russians, there are Chechens that participate in the guerilla war, there are Chechens who somewhat sympathize with independence, and there are Chechens who just want to go on with their lives (which is probably the majority). Problem is that these groups all blend together, events cause the lines to shift and be gray, and it can be near impossible to distinguish friend from foe.
Personally I think kidnapping and killing athletes, journalists, and children, and blowing up buses and airplanes, crosses a line where I lose sympathy for any cause which you may wish to put on the agenda. But the radical Palestinians have been practicing these tactics for years and they seem to constantly garner attention and sympathy from their neighbors and the world at large. So I suppose that just means we'll see more and more of this stuff.
Non-violence as a strategy seems to have failed to taken hold.
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Post #172,637
9/3/04 2:36:39 PM
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Agreed
There was not a little of that in the birth of Israel - or Ireland. Was Begin a terrorist? Probably. Was Michael Collins?
-drl
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Post #172,638
9/3/04 2:39:59 PM
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or closer to home
George Washington? The Brits probably thought so at the time.
Strange how half the world is seeing borders become more and more fuzzy, whilst the other half wants to carve itself into smaller and smaller pieces.
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Post #172,641
9/3/04 2:44:27 PM
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Washington? No way! MY heroes are nae terrierists!
-drl
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Post #172,680
9/3/04 6:01:22 PM
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Hard to say
By mondern standards our revolutionary war was fairly clean. But there where atrocities on both sides. On the British side it was mostly the non-British mercenaries, who where interested in picking up as much loot as the could as they went. On the American side it was mostly beatings of loyalists and torching of their farms and houses.
Jay
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Post #172,669
9/3/04 4:39:52 PM
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The reason Palestineans get sympathy.
It's called "guilt". We didn't want the Jews, so we gave them Palestine. We still feel (deeply suppressed I'll grant) guilty about that.
bcnu,
Mikem
"I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth."
V.I. Lenin
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Post #172,615
9/3/04 1:05:53 PM
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What they need.
Is for the entire Chechen region to be turned into glass.
bcnu,
Mikem
"I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth."
V.I. Lenin
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Post #172,623
9/3/04 1:34:42 PM
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Re: What they need.
That would of course work - we could just kill all the Muslims or make them into slave labor.
Of course, that wouldn't exactly be right now, would it?
I can't understand why Russia doesn't just cut them loose. Must be oil or seaports.
-drl
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Post #172,630
9/3/04 1:48:21 PM
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Two reasons
Not sure which one is the more important one.
They actually were cut loose under Yeltsin, in all practical sences of the word. Russia lost the First Chechen War. Then, one day, they decided to strike across Russian border into Dagestan, another small quasy-republic in Russian Federation. And, at about the same time, appartment buildings in Moscow and Leningrad started to blow up (that may have been a set-up by FSB, no one is sure).
So the reasons were:
1) they wouldn't leave Russia alone
2) Putin needed an enemy to look tough against. His popularity soared after he "won" the Second Chechen War.
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
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Post #172,631
9/3/04 1:53:08 PM
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It wouldn't stop with Chechnya (19kB .gif)
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2355419.stm|BBC Q&A on Chechnya]. This map illustrates the geography of the region:
[image|http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/460000/images/_460353_chechnya_caucusus2.gif|0|Caucauses|284|300]
Many of the rebels don't want to stop with Chechnya, and [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/429735.stm|Dagestan] has already been a target. Caspian oil (routed through Azerbaijan) certainly is a strategic factor in the calculus on both sides.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #172,649
9/3/04 3:55:10 PM
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Finally the truth. It's about the oil!
Alex
"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
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Post #172,663
9/3/04 4:33:58 PM
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No, it wouldn't be "right". But, then, ...
can you tell me the value of "negogiating" with the lower pond scum that could use children like this? People who shoot at children as they try to flee? They're worth what? Sorry, and I know I did this before when those of their type ilk flew airplanes into buildings, but I swear, increasingly I am left to believe that it is time we culled a few for the sake of the herd.
bcnu,
Mikem
"I declare war to the death on dominant nation chauvinism. I shall eat it with all my healthy teeth as soon as I get rid of this accursed bad tooth."
V.I. Lenin
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Post #172,717
9/4/04 9:20:35 AM
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And then the West Bank? And Tikrit?
What makes the Chechens worse than any other group of murderous malcontents chafing under necessary and well-deserved oppression?
And to think they call *me* a warmonger. I've never advocated nuking a whole ethnic group.
We need a missile defense to protect ourselves against people not much unlike you.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #172,702
9/3/04 10:58:29 PM
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Another update
[link|http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040904/ts_nm/russia_school_dc|http://story.news.ya.../russia_school_dc]
It was not a botched rescue operation, it was a botched hostage-taking. Terrorists' bomb went off by itself, and all hell broke loose. Children were fleeing, the SOBs were firing at them, and the Army started firing back. Over 200 dead, more than 500 injured, 3 terrorists taken alive(!).
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
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Post #172,709
9/4/04 3:12:19 AM
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Re: Another update
It was not a botched rescue operation, it was a botched hostage-taking. Terrorists' bomb went off by itself, and all hell broke loose. Children were fleeing, the SOBs were firing at them, and the Army started firing back. Over 200 dead, more than 500 injured, 3 terrorists taken alive(!). How stupid, securing a bomb in place with TAPE.... (shakes head sadly) I heard about the finale of the situation on the news, and just stared dumbstruck at the scene... it was all I could do not to cry, I thought Columbine was bad, but this.... this was so much worse. I don't think I'll ever forget it. Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,716
9/4/04 9:13:19 AM
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Somebody has to say these, may as well be me
1. It's incidents like this that show what a detestable slander these moral equivalence arguments are. I'm no fan of Putin's government, but they're way better than these bastards.
2. Putin's biggest mistake is he thinks he can fight terrorism locally, like some sort of international law enforcement problem. It doesn't work that way. You need to destroy the culture that spawns the evil. Kill the root. (Which is *not* poverty, by the way.)
2a. Corollary: we're in a war. Let's fight to win.
3. You can't win a hostage situation. So focus on avoiding them. Short term tactics: better security. Long term strategy: see the points above and below.
4. You can't win a hostage situation. You can only lose big now or lose bigger later. It's tempting to give in. Even Reagan did that - it's how the whole Iran Contra thing got started. Whatever you do, never reward hostage taking. Never. Regard the hostages as already dead, and focus on delivering justice to their killers.
4a. Putin did the second best thing possible by storming the place. For how he could have done better, see #2 above. For how he could have done worse, see #4 above.
5. Expressions of sadness and regret never helped anything. Talk is cheap, and hugs aren't worth much more.
Words may fail others, but not me. My concept space is better equipped to deal with such events. If something astonishes you, that means you've been clueless about something.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #172,736
9/4/04 2:15:01 PM
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Two things I disagree with
4a. Putin did the second best thing possible by storming the place. For how he could have done better, see #2 above. For how he could have done worse, see #4 above. First one is wrong. Putin didn't storm the place. A bomb went off that wasn't intended to, (prematurely), and everyone panicked. Kids tried to flee, gunmen tried to shoot them as they fled, and the forces trying to negotiate shot at the gunment trying to shoot the kids. It was a mass chaos, not something that was intended to be caused. 5. Expressions of sadness and regret never helped anything. Talk is cheap, and hugs aren't worth much more. And I disagree here. Expressions of sadness and regret ALWAYS help the victims to deal with the tragedy. They also help those of us who are left behind, or who are too far removed to be of any help. Offering condolences and comfort is the one thing ANYONE can do, no matter how far away they are, or who they are. Talk is good too, it's something that helps people come to terms with things. And sometimes it's useful when trying to get a peaceable solution determined, but it isn't always cheap, sometimes you pay a heavy price for saying what you think to someone. And hugs, well hugs are always welcome, they are yet another thing anyone can offer both physically if they're close enough, or mentally if they aren't. I think you haven't been hugged enough, Marlowe. (HUG) :) Words may fail others, but not me. My concept space is better equipped to deal with such events. If something astonishes you, that means you've been clueless about something. I'm not so much as astonished, as well, stunned by the thought of such directed violence against young children. I'm certainly not clueless, I'm not one of those people who believes naively that "It can't happen here." It DOES and CAN happen anywhere, anytime anyplace, and that's something I never forget. One just has to wonder how those terrorists felt deep INSIDE about killing helpless fleeing children. Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,741
9/4/04 3:02:06 PM
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172716/172736
A match made in heaven.
cordially,
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
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Post #172,742
9/4/04 3:05:01 PM
9/4/04 3:10:13 PM
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Sorry
I'm already happily married. :)
Nightowl >8#
Edit: Besides, I like my men to be a little less "fiery" ;)
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 4, 2004, 03:10:13 PM EDT
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Post #172,744
9/4/04 3:23:11 PM
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You misunderstand
I meant merely that in the owlet marlowe at last finds a foeswoman worthy of his steel.
and..."fiery"? There's far more smoke than flame to be had from the bot...think of a puddle of burning tar.
cordially,
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
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Post #172,745
9/4/04 3:25:37 PM
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Ah, sorry about that
I think I was just thinking of what the line usually means.
Thanks Rcareaga. :)
And yeah, you're right, he's mostly a puff of smoke here and there. ;)
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,923
9/7/04 9:12:59 AM
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I'll grant 4a, given latest info, but stand firm on 5
(Only the letter of 4a, not the spirit.)
Comforting words are a painkiller, not a remedy. Painkillers are addictive.
Give your condolences if you must, but be sure you know when to stop. The way to comfort the afflicted is to put paid to the affliction.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #172,928
9/7/04 10:42:31 AM
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"painkillers are addictive"
So's hate. Maybe you should wean yourself off of that drug before you go pontificating about any other.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #173,546
9/10/04 12:45:39 PM
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Tell that to the Democrats, Islamists and the Left.
They're doing all the hating. All I'm doing is facing the facts.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #173,589
9/10/04 4:37:59 PM
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What about Chechnya?
You're noticably silent on that issue.
And Northern Ireland.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #174,805
9/17/04 11:23:58 AM
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A proposal from S. Frederick Starr
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27550-2004Sep16.html|Washington Post]: The peace plan on which Duma members and Chechen leaders agreed included the same formula worked out a year earlier: Chechnya's continued legal membership in the Russian Federation, but with firm guarantees that it would enjoy the maximum degree of self-rule and autonomy. Maskhadov was quoted as saying he would accept this outcome as the best way of preserving the ethnic existence of the Chechen people. This lay to rest the red herring of secession about which Putin preached to grieving parents in Beslan after the schoolhouse attack there. In Liechtenstein the two sides differed only on such secondary points as whether Russian or joint Russian-Chechen forces should guard the southern border or whether the rest of Chechnya should be demilitarized.
What happened to these initiatives? When asked at a news conference about the first meeting, Putin flatly denied that it had taken place. When word got out about the second, the Russian White House said it was a scheme devised by Boris Berezovsky, a dissident oligarch, to discredit Putin, even though Berezovsky was in no way connected with it. In short, Putin brushed aside the proposals.
[...]
It is no secret that there are terrorists among revenge-seeking Chechens and that there are radical Islamists among the desperate population of that land. But if Putin persists in painting all Chechens with the same brush of terrorism and Wahhabism, he will block the only remaining path to a peaceful solution and deny Russians and Chechens the only approach known to have the support of responsible figures on both sides. Putin's a big part of the problem, but it's not clear whether anyone is willing or able to stand up to him and force him to moderate his policies. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #172,943
9/7/04 12:25:22 PM
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Re: I'll grant 4a, given latest info, but stand firm on 5
(Only the letter of 4a, not the spirit.) Thanks. :) Comforting words are a painkiller, not a remedy. Painkillers are addictive. I agree there too, they aren't a remedy, they just help the victim cope. Give your condolences if you must, but be sure you know when to stop. The way to comfort the afflicted is to put paid to the affliction. Oh absolutely. If you coddle a victim too much, they'll never get past the issue, (ex: if you cater to a rape victim's feaar of going outside, they'll never do it etc.), so you do have to give condolences, but also know when to step back and let the person learn to live with their fears and pains again. Have a good day, Marlowe! :) Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,743
9/4/04 3:13:22 PM
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Speaking of cheap talk
Putin's biggest mistake is he thinks he can fight terrorism locally, like some sort of international law enforcement problem. It doesn't work that way. What fucking planet do you live on? Putin would like nothing better to get recognition that the problem in Chechnya is an international terrorism problem. Note that they are harping that 10 of the dead perpetrators are Arab. It's the west that has thus far tried to categorize it as a "local" problem, with the U.S. equivicating on the point. After all, it was our freedom fighters in Afghanistan that was as responsible for the fall of the Berlin wall as any other item that was in the defense budget. Expressions of sadness and regret never helped anything. So we should show no signs of emotion? Excuse me but the failure to show compassion is exactly the hole in which we would treat others as subhuman. Talk is cheap... Words may fail others, but not me. My concept space is better equipped to deal with such events. And just what have you done for your cause in terms of sacrifice? Have you killed any Arabs lately? Have you sent your children over to a far off country where they are hated and despised and constantly targeted? Your chicken hawk bullshit is nothing but cheap fucking talk. You don't mind sending me or my kids to go do your killing for you, but damn if you'd ever get off your lazy ass and put your words into action. The NewCons are nothing but a bunch of draft dodging bullshit artists that want to line their pockets with the money paid for by the blood of others.
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Post #172,771
9/5/04 2:53:15 AM
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Exercise for Marlowe.
Please solve the Chechen problem without ceding Chechnya to the rebels.
Then, when you have provided a solution to that, you may proceed to solve the Northern Ireland question.
Use both sides of the paper. You may not use Google for this exercise.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #172,781
9/5/04 10:19:51 AM
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You forgot to tell him...
...not to use nukes or genocide, either.
What will we do when we are Gods?
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Post #172,872
9/6/04 6:06:57 PM
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Well then, that only leaves
the Ashcroft/Diebold Covenant:
Conscripted army of 5M or so Peacekeepers to manage the Empire, one smoldering city-block at-a-time. Surely the Nintendo Eloi will join the Elite Volunteer Schutzstaffel, along with the scions of our other National War Heroes (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rove, Kristol et al - who earlier.. were saving themselves for this now obv. Highest Priority)
Kinda a nice ring to, Obergruppenfuehrer Klaus Philbot, resplendent in that dark-mauve uniform with the shiny black boots, gold embroidered epaulets and the stunning Eagle-over-the-Globe lapel insignia. (No one can even see a bulge.. from the miniaturized Model Airplane Controller in his smartly-tailored inner pocket - via which he sends his minions of Risk-at-a-Distance Stinger-gnats into er combat?)
One might long to see the Purple Heart added to his chest decorations; what's the loss of a few limbs when you're fighting the Perpetual War-on-Peace?
Carrion - - -
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Post #172,920
9/7/04 8:54:04 AM
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It's very simple, once you decide not to complicate it
First teach the world that hostage taking and others terrorist acts will be rewarded only with death. Then wait a bit, while all these problems begin to solve themselves.
Those who get the message, take themselves out of the equation. Those who don't, are taken out of the equation by us. Subsequently they go on to the hereafter to be judged by Darwin and his angels.
It put an end the Assassin cult of Alamut (though their spiritual heirs have recently risen up, due to current weakness on the part of the civilized.) It worked against the Barbary pirates. It put paid to the Nazi regime. It's making life increasingly difficult for Sadr. And it's already starting to yield results in [link|http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/pale-j23.shtml|Arafat land].
Just because you don't have the answers doesn't mean there no answers. It could simply be that you're not bright enough. Or that you're trapped in some sort of neo-Marxist interpretation that won't let you see the way out. Which, come to think of it, is just a particular way of being stupid.
To the sufficiently stupid, any problem is intractible.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #172,952
9/7/04 1:27:38 PM
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If it's very simple, provide the answer.
Although you do wave your hands in style, I must say.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #173,053
9/8/04 8:36:07 AM
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Sounds nice...
"First teach the world that hostage taking and others terrorist acts will be rewarded only with death. Then wait a bit, while all these problems begin to solve themselves."
That's not a solution -- that's a rant.
First of all, _all_ human behavior is rewarded only with death (and much too soon) -- and the world has been fully aware of it for a really, really long time.
Second, while we're at it, let's solve a couple other problems:
Let's rid the human race of sexually transmitted diseases -- strict monogamy for 80 to 100 years would just about do it.
Let's improve my standard of living -- if everybody in the US would just give me a dime, the increased utility to me would far outweigh the sum of the decreased utilities to everybody else.
These may seem unrelated to your "answer", but as game theory teaches us, the benefits to local cheating while everybody else toes the line can be high -- high enough to derail even the best-meaning ideologies in practice.
Who would you trust not to ever deal with terrorists?
Giovanni
"Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for. You don't need George Bush for that."
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Post #173,066
9/8/04 10:25:08 AM
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OT: Panhandler Joe, is that you?
[link|http://panhandler.refers.to/|Got a dollar?]
;-j
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #173,068
9/8/04 10:27:08 AM
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Nope. thats not p-joey
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #173,069
9/8/04 10:28:36 AM
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Saw the ;-j right? I know he's not; just reminded me of PJ.
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Post #173,081
9/8/04 11:41:41 AM
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PJ is Imric, and Imric is PJ, no? Gainfully employed now
-drl
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Post #173,086
9/8/04 11:56:36 AM
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back when he was wineing a lot :-)
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #173,142
9/8/04 3:25:16 PM
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Hey, things were bad!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #173,076
9/8/04 11:00:39 AM
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Hey hey hey!
Nope - it's not me...
But I always appreciate a helping hand!
*grin*
[link|http://panhandler.refers.to|Got a Dollar]?
[link|http://cluex4.refers.to|Buy a Clue]!
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Post #173,077
9/8/04 11:05:05 AM
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:-)
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Post #173,082
9/8/04 11:42:30 AM
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No, that's "the Italian Stallion" - ciao whinny!
-drl
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Post #173,951
9/13/04 3:44:47 PM
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Ciao, good buddy
...e se non piangi, di che pianger suoli?
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Post #172,722
9/4/04 10:31:09 AM
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At least 322 dead, al-Qaeda linked group claims responsib.
[link|http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a.i.skj7EQdM&refer=top_world_news|Bloomberg] - the URL will likely change: Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- At least 322 people, half of them children, died at the Russian school where terrorists took hundreds of parents and pupils hostage, state news service Itar-Tass reported, citing Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky.
[...]
A group loyal to Ayman al-Zawahiri, second-in-command to al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, claimed responsibility for the assault in a statement posted on an Islamic Web site, Islamic Minbar. The authenticity of the statement cannot be verified.
``The killing of the Russian Crusader Butchers in Ossetia is the start of a street and gang war the heroic mujaheeden will conduct against the European security forces,'' the statement said. We have to take claims of responsibility with a grain of salt (recall that an al-Qaeda linked group claimed responsibility for the big US electrical blackout a year or so ago). Cheers, Scott.
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Post #172,918
9/7/04 8:10:07 AM
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Claimed purpose was to start regional war.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1256-2004Sep6?language=printer|Washington Post]: In sorting through the origins of the hostage crisis, Russian officials said they had concluded that the strike against a target outside Chechnya, the scene of nearly 10 years of intermittent fighting, was part of a broader strategy to reignite the entire North Caucasus, a historically volatile region of mixed ethnic and religious groups. While the government has admitted to lying about the scope of the hostage crisis at first, its analysis about the goals and Chechen sponsorship coincides with that of independent specialists.
[...]
"It appears to be a deliberate provocation to reignite the conflict between Ingushetia and North Ossetia, to extend the range of the chaos," said Fiona Hill, a scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "It's very easy to stir up the region if you want to, and somebody wants to. This is a wake-up call. The whole of the Caucasus is going to go up at this rate."
Putin raised the specter of the region breaking apart from Moscow during a meeting with Hill and other visiting Westerners late Monday. "There's a Yugoslavia variant here," he said, according to notes taken by Eileen O'Connor, a participant. "It would be difficult to imagine the consequences for the rest of the world. Bear in mind Russia is a nuclear power." Cheers, Scott.
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