Problem with public schools is that when we went to them

Post #169,840 by boxley 8/18/04 10:00:38 AM Reply	Problem with public schools is that when we went to them facts and methodology was taught. Now the process is teaching emotions, this produces emotional kids unable to process facts very well. Charter schools is just another scam to rip off the kids, just like the NEA. Tests are stupid but by teaching to the test at least the fucking kids learn something. thanx, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #169,850 by mmoffitt 8/18/04 10:51:30 AM Reply	Re: By teaching to the test. Do they learn anything? I don't think so. The real problem with public school education, imo, is too much right-wing theocratic nonsense infecting academics. And the fact that we all want a free education, but don't want to pay for it. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #169,853 by deSitter 8/18/04 10:59:24 AM Reply	Sure they do Elementary school is not the place to teach thinking - it's the place to teach mechanics, basics, and essential skills needed for thinking. As Box said, schools these days teach emotions, which in the Jungian sense are orthogonal to both thinking AND sensation. One needs to have a very "sensate" curriculum - what can the kids DO, not how do they FEEL or what do they THINK. Those things are not important at an early stage for the vast majority of kids. The less kids think while being in an inchoate, infantile stage, the better. -drl
Post #169,946 by mmoffitt 8/18/04 5:27:57 PM Reply	I was speaking more of secondary schools. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #169,876 by bepatient 8/18/04 1:17:37 PM Reply	You want to elaborate on that? Because the educational system is usually accused of being a bastion of liberalism. I find it odd that you would be blaming this on the right. (well I don't find it odd coming from >you< specifically...that was more of a generalised "you")...get it? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #169,943 by mmoffitt 8/18/04 5:25:31 PM Reply	Sheesh! Think "Kansas", think "creation [sic] science". I know the "Big Lie"(tm) is what we hear (like the "liberal bias in the press") but schools are so afraid to teach anything to anyone anymore, they can hardly be labeled "liberal" anymore. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #169,958 by bepatient 8/18/04 6:11:18 PM Reply	Sheesh 2 Think its a much bigger country than Kansas If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #169,965 by Ashton 8/18/04 6:56:45 PM 8/18/04 6:58:13 PM Reply	..and the Fright-wing program re schoolboard infiltration Is now in all those states ~ culminating in the religio-agenda matters superseding, via incessant legal wrangles and other ploys - the basic demands to produce literacy, an ability to discriminate all assertions via debate. Actually teaching discrimination is inconsistent with Religio-indoctrination, just as creation-science is meant to supersede any awareness of what 'science' connotes.. whether via school prayer chestnuts or merely tactics of obstruction, against the learning of individual competence in thinking. And the effective method thus far: Language Murder, masked as, 'for Jesus sake'. cha cha BeeP cha cha Typo cha Edited by Ashton Aug. 18, 2004, 06:58:13 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #169,975 by bepatient 8/18/04 8:25:37 PM Reply	you would have a real hard time supporting any of those statements in eastern PA or NJ. Ah well...and too to accuse the right of legal wrangles when it was definitely NOT a person of the right persuasion going to Court over "under gawd". But feel free to invent more whenever you feel cha it cha necessary cha. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,008 by mmoffitt 8/18/04 10:34:33 PM Reply	*BOGGLE* ...too to accuse the right of legal wrangles when it was definitely NOT a person of the right persuasion going to Court over "under gawd". Stop it. The Right owns the law these days (and, thankyouverymuch for a more concrete example of how public education is subordinate to the Theocratic Right than any I could come up with). Of course it wasn't a Right-Winger who went to court over that! Why would a true-believer of the new Theocratic States of Murica go to court to fight a Theocratic Dictate? bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #170,010 by drewk 8/18/04 10:45:17 PM Reply	DING! Go to your corners You're both right, which of course means you're both wrong. The right won't accept books that suggest natural selection might have occurred. The left won't accept books that suggest natural selection might have resulted in differences between people. The right won't accpet books that discuss sex. The left won't accept books that discuss gender. The right won't accept books that mention anyone else's religion. The left won't accept books that mention anyone's religion. Easier to just not teach anything. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #170,011 by mmoffitt 8/18/04 10:48:03 PM Reply	One wrong. I, as a very proud member of the Left, have absolutely no problem with books on sex. It's the other guys that have a problem with that ;-D (Caveat: But not in MY daughters classes) bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #170,013 by drewk 8/18/04 10:55:37 PM Reply	Read it again I said it was the right that didn't want sex in the books. The left doesn't want gender. re: Your caveat -- ain't that the truth. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #170,186 by mmoffitt 8/19/04 1:53:33 PM Reply	My bad. ;-) bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #170,282 by bepatient 8/19/04 4:57:52 PM Reply	Reread the post culminating in the religio-agenda matters superseding, via incessant legal wrangles and other ploys The "right" isn't using the Court system to legislate changes that suit their agenda, at least not in the specific example given (the Pledge). This was the >LEFT< using the Court system to reverse something that had been in place for the better part of a half-century. Whether right or wrong, correct or incorrect...it is largely ploy of the left to use the Courts to legislate their objectives was my point. I understand the positions of the >left< versus the >right< here. Quite frankly, you should have no say in what >my< kids learn and how they learn it unless you move into my local school district. And claiming this country is theocratic in nature is simply misleading in todays enviroment. The judicial process indeed now actively discriminates against religion...something that the federal goverment, by charter, is not even supposed to legislate. The Supreme Court should not have been involved in the pledge case. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,469 by mmoffitt 8/20/04 2:46:57 PM 8/20/04 2:48:44 PM Reply	Heh. The Supreme Court should not have been involved in the pledge case. I guess you're right. I guess if the State decides to sponsor religion, the USSC should not be asked about it. [Edit:] The thing you originally objected to was my obervation that, "The real problem with public school education, imo, is too much right-wing theocratic nonsense infecting academics." Putting "God" in the classroom is arguably as concrete an example of that as exists. And, btw, as a tot I was coerced into saying the pledge, but the phrase "under God" was not spoken in my classroom in Southern California in the 1960's. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President. Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 20, 2004, 02:48:44 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #170,472 by bepatient 8/20/04 3:17:03 PM Reply	I see... ...feet over hot coals? Threat of the whip? And I see it did lasting damage to your psyche as well. <tongue>Oh, I forget, we only worry about those that are far more feeble minded than we...who were able to make up our own minds even in the face of such strong indoctrination. </cheek> If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,516 by Simon_Jester 8/20/04 11:43:42 PM Reply	I have to agree with BP... the Right very rarely uses the courts to enforce what they want. They typically kill/maim anyone who disagrees with them. Quite frankly, you should have no say in what >my< kids learn and how they learn it unless you move into my local school district. This statement makes no sense given the Right's backing of "No child left behind". The judicial process indeed now actively discriminates against religion...something that the federal goverment, by charter, is not even supposed to legislate. Actually the judicial process has discriminated against religions for YEARS. Strickly speaking, states should be allowed to form (and have done so in the past) state religions. Normally it is the Right being behind such discrimination. (Case in point: Utah)
Post #170,561 by bepatient 8/21/04 2:05:05 PM Reply	Re: I have to agree with BP... This statement makes no sense given the Right's backing of "No child left behind". Since that was >my< opinion...whaddya think that means? (Ooh...maybe I'm not what you assume?) Normally it is the Right being behind such discrimination. I would tend to disagree on percentages and say it is normally the left only because the majority of cases are around removing monotheistic and/or catholic items from state/local buildings (clearly overstepping federal authority doing so). Cases in point, Ten Commandments removed from AL court, earlier in teh 80's removed from all local school...the hundreds of cases where Christmas decorations were not allowed to be placed on city grounds (Phila being one example). however, neither side is innocent...but BOTH sides are wrong in assuming that the federal government should have that authority and they are incredibly misguided if they translate the First Amendment in that fashion. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; I don't think that is too ambiguous on the subject, do you? What part of "make no law" is misunderstood? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,579 by Ashton 8/21/04 5:57:52 PM Reply	..a Nation under God?__Cthulhu?__Where's:___None-of above?
Post #170,582 by bepatient 8/21/04 6:09:26 PM Reply	Find a state or city that agrees... ...and move there. Because the nation is not even "none of the above"...its "whatever the hell you want". If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,590 by Ashton 8/21/04 6:58:44 PM Reply	+6.6 for innovation..
Post #170,599 by bepatient 8/21/04 10:03:32 PM Reply	You shorted me a six, buddy. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,605 by n3jja 8/22/04 12:47:27 AM Reply	Should have been a +6.66, then? ;-)
Post #170,611 by bepatient 8/22/04 1:45:11 AM Reply	now tatoo it on my forhead! If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,664 by Ashton 8/22/04 7:21:35 PM Reply	True Seers need no pigmentation to See_____er, :-\ufffd
Post #170,669 by bepatient 8/22/04 9:04:12 PM 8/22/04 9:04:39 PM Reply	True.. ...but as the anti-Ashton, I must bear the mark ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Aug. 22, 2004, 09:04:39 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #170,675 by Ashton 8/22/04 10:31:02 PM Reply	Ah.. an afficionado of String-along Theory
Post #170,693 by jb4 8/23/04 11:24:34 AM Reply	As the anti-Ashton, you must bear THIS mark: :-\ufffd jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #170,694 by Another Scott 8/23/04 11:30:12 AM Reply	Nay - "Ka Ching, Ka Ching, Ka Ching". HTH. :-)
Post #170,583 by Simon_Jester 8/21/04 6:10:25 PM Reply	Differences in opinion.... > Normally it is the Right being behind such discrimination. I would tend to disagree on percentages and say it is normally the left only because the majority of cases are around removing monotheistic and/or catholic items from state/local buildings (clearly overstepping federal authority doing so). Cases in point, Ten Commandments removed from AL court, earlier in teh 80's removed from all local school...the hundreds of cases where Christmas decorations were not allowed to be placed on city grounds (Phila being one example). however, neither side is innocent...but BOTH sides are wrong in assuming that the federal government should have that authority and they are incredibly misguided if they translate the First Amendment in that fashion. Certainly the recent arguments have come from the Left - and as I have agreed with you, the Left generally tries things in the Courts and, for the most part, abides by those rulings, even when they are against them. However, I'm not certain these arguments are more numerous than those from the Right, particular when viewed over time. As I have pointed out, several states did have State Religions. And if you think the Left would be the ones who would rally the fight against Utah declaring their State Religion to be Mormon, I think you'd be sadly mistaken.
Post #170,585 by bepatient 8/21/04 6:20:08 PM Reply	The problem in Utah.. ...is they imported too damned many Irish ;-) Seriously, though...I though Utah had a similar separation clause to that of the Constitution...making it unconstitutional at the state level to declare a "state religion". If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,645 by Simon_Jester 8/22/04 3:41:41 PM Reply	Ahem, I think if you investigate further... you'll find that amendment was a requirement for them to be added as a State to our Union. And if you dig, just a little deeper, you'll find the people who required said amendment. (And they won't be the Left.) (FYI: Salt Lake City is about 40% Catholic (iirc), but the state is something like 90% Mormon)
Post #170,653 by bepatient 8/22/04 5:15:57 PM Reply	Ok... not arguing...didn't know the history of that piece of their charter. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,015 by boxley 8/18/04 10:58:38 PM Reply	cha cha cha is copyrighted jimmy durante and copyleft ashton do not abuse :-) thanx, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #170,054 by Ashton 8/19/04 4:15:59 AM Reply	Well.. of 2,760,000 Googlentries "This is the very first time that I have felt that God was in the White House." cha cha cha Ooops.. must be a repovirus [link\|http://chachacha.citysearch.com/\|http://chachacha.citysearch.com/] [link\|http://www.chachacha.co.uk/\|http://www.chachacha.co.uk/] [link\|http://www.worldsbestbars.com/city/Seattle/ChaChaLounge.asp\| Cha Cha Lounge Bar in er Seattle] [link\|http://www.animetric.com/abc/acc.html\|A broom-riding little girl] [link\|http://cha-cha.berkeley.edu/papers/usits99/\|A system for organizing intranet search results] ... ... And lots more that Only I Know and.. You Don't cha cha cha :-\ufffd
Post #169,966 by deSitter 8/18/04 6:59:09 PM Reply	IC partial LRPD "This is, in toto, a bigger country than Kansas." -drl
Post #169,971 by Ashton 8/18/04 7:17:41 PM Reply	Signed: Oz-ymandias of Egypt
Post #169,861 by hnick 8/18/04 11:28:38 AM Reply	The goals were different when we went to school When I was in school, the goal was to educate students to either continue education in college or to be able to function in the labor pool. Now, schools are a day care center that incidentally attempt to teach some basics. The testing techniques are only a symptom of the problem. Parents used to encourage the completion of homework and assist in the teaching process, as they knew their kids better than the teachers could. Now the parent(s) have little time or energy to spend on their kids education. This assumes that in this day of children having children, that the parent(s) could actually understand the kids homework. I don't see this as a sinister government plot or evil business strategy. I see it as part of the system slowly failing and beaurocrats trying to shovel shit against the tide. The charter schools are likely being used as a type of triage. They appear to be a place to stick the real problem kids in the hope that the ones who have a chance won't be dragged down with them. And who knows? They might actually learn something. That would be a twofer. At the end of the day, though, the parents still need to be involved and with todays economic and social pressures, that isn't likely to happen. The tests will continue to be dumbed down, because the politicians can't have a 60% failure rate in schools. There will be less and less respect for learning. When the system fails completely, I don't know what will happen, but I doubt it will be pretty.
Post #169,945 by mmoffitt 8/18/04 5:27:10 PM Reply	Xcellent point. At the end of the day, though, the parents still need to be involved and with todays economic and social pressures, that isn't likely to happen. More is the pity. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #169,953 by Ashton 8/18/04 5:51:50 PM Reply	Ah.. a non-digital, thoughtful answer - Nicely summarized and, and good reminder that we always Do project our own obv-much-earlier experience onto, trying to make sense of the unutterably-fucked chaos now spreading into every aspect of life, within the new Religio-Corporatocracy being accelerated for us all. Surely parental-input (most of all: Attention! of that sort you reserve for people you love) has been a basic component of all 'education', for all of life. My experience was a tad different, so I'm trying to guesstimate another difference in approach: I was in a private school for most of the grades + HS (econ. necessity, in the era when single-parent was aberration and there was no 'safety net' to speak of.) But there: each evening was study-in-room for x-hours. I think.. there was also "study hall" - either for the recalcitrant? or for those wanting to group-think re assignments. Never used it. I suspect that this system was poor(er) for those needing lots of parental complement to the teacher's ministrations [?] but on the other side of coin: my 'need' was merely to have some invisible Authority decreeing that, this WAS indeed, 'study time' ... and I completed assignments uneventfully. One might infer that on this side of coin also is: inculcation of finding the answers with minimal hand-holding. This could be called ~ 'learning how to think' in at least some form. I find it most difficult of all - to fold-in the information of there being today, a majority of 'parents' so pooped, so filled with residual anger/angst at the vast new intrusion into home-time, of the Corporate 24/7 expectations .. and finding themselves (as you suggest) probably incapable of actually helping with assignments du jour. To all teachers, everywhere in '04: Y.P.B. You Poor Bastards Worst of all: not ONE of us was ever prepared to witness, participate-in! the palpable, measurable Deconstruction of 'our society' overall. 'Progress' is inculcated as firmly as Jesus, the Puritans and Std. National Hypocrisy over all-Large-matters of the psyche. Who, remotely! could have envisioned the machinations of a mere 3.5 Years -- in the undoing of means of production, housing, concern for local and global environment [fill in one's Fav] and the instant-burgeoning of the Armed deCivilized Warfare State / with AK-47s now everywhere ?? (Fla news post-hurricane: unnecessarily heavily armed troops in retirement communities! Eye-witness interview this AM on NPR.) Who shall have time to address the school-parent-grades dilemma? while Not-becoming inured to the chaos which this tiny bunch of Neoconmen have wreaked -- so much of that directly from the perverse agenda of just a handful of nameable Troglodytes. Now THAT's the rilly SCARY factoid re our rate-of-Decline. There will be no magic turnaround in our wholesale manufacture of dumbth, much as one would earnestly wish otherwise. moi
Post #169,956 by deSitter 8/18/04 6:00:10 PM Reply	Re: Ah.. a non-digital, thoughtful answer - I didn't project shit - I saw the system collapse before my eyes, and got out of it. The touchy-feely arrived with the destruction of math and langauge classes, and Level 1-2-3 classification of student skills. On the part of the students, drugs and bomb threats. It happened in the early 70s and it was a CATASTROPHE. -drl
Post #169,872 by folkert 8/18/04 1:13:00 PM Reply	No, they MEMORIZE something. Memorizing != Learning Learning can include Memorizing, but things are different. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #169,885 by boxley 8/18/04 1:37:47 PM Reply	so say the alphabet without breaking into song then tell me that rote memorization doesnt assist learning. thanx, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #169,919 by folkert 8/18/04 4:10:11 PM Reply	I FRICKING SAID THAT!!!! And I quote myself from [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=169872\|Post #169872] *Learning can include Memorizing, but things are different.* I never said it wasn't PART of learning. I just said MEMORIZING, like they do for these God Damn Tests, does not help them. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #169,983 by boxley 8/18/04 9:21:53 PM Reply	of course it helps them I read you in your post. rote memorization of alphabet, basic addition.subtraction,multiplication being able to read basic language text and speak somewhat coherently free's children to then learn. Its hard to understand fractions, trig algebra at all if you struggle to add 45+32 without resorting to a calculator. In elementary school there should be a push for these basics in grade one thru 5 not 3 of 5 hours a day discussing whether "they be racist." thanx. bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

Welcome to IWETHEY!